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Austria To Phase Out Eurofighter


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#61 seahawk

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 1234 PM

The deal is already slated to go to Saab. Things are lining up already. Pilot training with the Czech republic, advanced pilto training with Sweden and talk that Saab deserves the contract as they would have won with out the illegal means used by Airbus - because corruption never requires two parties in Austria and it is so not important that the defence minister favouring the Gripen was under investigation for some 400.000 Euros strangely showing up on his account from firms supporting the Saab bid. But well, he never had to stand trial for this, so it is fine in Austria and the next generation of politicians surely wants their piece of Swedish pie.



#62 bd1

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 1525 PM

88 flak towers, barrage balloons + modern-day VL ba-349 natter  should do the trick? 



#63 Yama

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 1603 PM

Romanians probably have some stored, still flyable LanceRs left.

And 'fallable' as well.


Hey, Croatia acquired "new" MiG-21's (unmodernized) as recently as 2013 to satisfy QRA requirement.

#64 Loopycrank

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1336 PM

 

 

Too bad the Bede BD-10 was a bust.

 

... Why?

 

It was the cheapest supersonic plane ever.

 

 

It was a toy for separating the moderately wealthy from their lucre.  As an instrument of class warfare, I guess it would have worked.  As an instrument of actual warfare?

 

Just do basic calculations on its ordnance-carrying capacity.  It wouldn't be useful for anything.



#65 lastdingo

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1546 PM

 

 

 

Too bad the Bede BD-10 was a bust.

 

... Why?

 

It was the cheapest supersonic plane ever.

 

 

It was a toy for separating the moderately wealthy from their lucre.  As an instrument of class warfare, I guess it would have worked.  As an instrument of actual warfare?

 

Just do basic calculations on its ordnance-carrying capacity.  It wouldn't be useful for anything.

 

Air policing requires AT MOST tracers.

A single 50cal would suffice.



#66 mnm

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1548 PM

Too bad the Bede BD-10 was a bust.

 

The BD-5 was not supersonic but some say it could fly though hangars ;)



#67 Olof Larsson

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1633 PM

 

 

 

 

Too bad the Bede BD-10 was a bust.

 

... Why?

 

It was the cheapest supersonic plane ever.

 

 

It was a toy for separating the moderately wealthy from their lucre.  As an instrument of class warfare, I guess it would have worked.  As an instrument of actual warfare?

 

Just do basic calculations on its ordnance-carrying capacity.  It wouldn't be useful for anything.

 

Air policing requires AT MOST tracers.

A single 50cal would suffice.

 

 

I would beg to differ, considering our experience from the second world war and early cold war, when british and US bombers flew over Sweden as they pleased on their way to and from Germany (to drop bombs) and the USSR (to make mock nuclear attacks). This is in contrast to the Swiss during war, who could do more than fire warning shots (shooting down multiple german and US aircrafts during the war), thanks to having modern fighters. A symbolic warning shot is completely useless, unless it could be followed up by effective leathal force.



#68 Loopycrank

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1650 PM

Air policing requires AT MOST tracers.

 

 

A single 50cal would suffice.

 

 

So intruders know they get a free fireworks show every time they violate sovereign airspace?  Unless you're planning on backing the little manned cruise missiles with SAMs or something (and have some very convincing answers on how to deal with the angular resolution of long range radar), this is the most entertainingly idiotic idea you've seriously proferred.  And that's saying something.



#69 lastdingo

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 0634 AM

You guys seem to ignore that 50cal API kills and incinerates. Nobody risks 50 holes form a 50cal just to fly a shorter route.

A few holes and you've got serious explaining to do to your superiors.

 

 

Besides, the fact that Western Austria cannot be air policed reliably (due to geography) stands. This is regardles sof how much firepower you may have or not on a supersonic fighter.



#70 Loopycrank

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1541 PM

A single 50cal would suffice.

 

 

 

Air policing requires AT MOST tracers.

 

 

 

You guys seem to ignore that 50cal API kills and incinerates. Nobody risks 50 holes form a 50cal just to fly a shorter route.

A few holes and you've got serious explaining to do to your superiors.

 

 

 

"AT MOST" tracers, or API?  Which is it?

 

And why do I get the feeling that you're just making this up as you go along?

 

(you are)



#71 Chris Werb

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1731 PM

The points Lastdingo makes about geography and only needing a single fifty-cal for air policing are correct. In a belt you can obviously have some tracers and some API or just API-T or whatever mix you want. I don't have a problem with any of his arguments re Austrian defence.



#72 Panzermann

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1753 PM

 

 

 

 

 

Too bad the Bede BD-10 was a bust.

 

... Why?

 

It was the cheapest supersonic plane ever.

 

 

It was a toy for separating the moderately wealthy from their lucre.  As an instrument of class warfare, I guess it would have worked.  As an instrument of actual warfare?

 

Just do basic calculations on its ordnance-carrying capacity.  It wouldn't be useful for anything.

 

Air policing requires AT MOST tracers.

A single 50cal would suffice.

 

 

I would beg to differ, considering our experience from the second world war and early cold war, when british and US bombers flew over Sweden as they pleased on their way to and from Germany (to drop bombs) and the USSR (to make mock nuclear attacks). This is in contrast to the Swiss during war, who could do more than fire warning shots (shooting down multiple german and US aircrafts during the war), thanks to having modern fighters. A symbolic warning shot is completely useless, unless it could be followed up by effective leathal force.

 

 

 

Which is exactly the reason why austrian Bundesheer and MoD want a supersonic fighter. It has to be able to credibly threat to catch a military aeroplane that crosses the border unallowed. And a bone or backfire can fly supersonic.

 

Though the Eurofighter with like 40.000 EUR per flight hour (or around that ballpark is the price i have read) is a bit expensive for the task of transporting a machinecannon of 25+ mm and a few air-toair missiles force a landing (or shoot down in the extreme) of an illegal tresapsser.



#73 CaptLuke

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 2029 PM

 

So seriously. What is on the market for a supersonic value jet fighter?

 
  • TA-50 golden Hawk
  • JAS 39 Gripen
  • Gripen NG
  • M-346 Master
 the competetitors for the T-38 Talon successor:
  • Boeing / Saab T-X
  • Leonardo T-100 (aka M-346 Master)
  • Lockheed Martin / KAI T-50 Golden Eagle
  • Northrop Grumman / BAE Systems updated Hawk T2
  • Sierra Nevada / TAI Freedom to be designed from scratch
  • Stavatti Javelin
  • Textron AirLand Scorpion
https://en.wikipedia...iki/T-X_program
 
chnese and russian are out for political reasons and known as maintenance hogs.
 
 
Did I miss one?

To the list of four, maybe JF-17 fits in there.

 

 

HAL Tejas as well.



#74 lastdingo

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 0125 AM

 

A single 50cal would suffice.

 

 

 

Air policing requires AT MOST tracers.

 

 

 

You guys seem to ignore that 50cal API kills and incinerates. Nobody risks 50 holes form a 50cal just to fly a shorter route.

A few holes and you've got serious explaining to do to your superiors.

 

 

 

"AT MOST" tracers, or API?  Which is it?

 

And why do I get the feeling that you're just making this up as you go along?

 

(you are)

 

 

Info for nitpickers; API-T.

By "at most" I meant the tracer effect. Only after some here displayed disbelief I felt compelled to point out that a machinegun is no toy.

 

regarding geography:

http://www.maps-of-e...with-relief.jpg

 

A 5 minute alert air policing flight needs ~ 4-5 minutes to take off. An airliner flies about 80 km in that time. This means it would be able to fly over Vienna and back or across Western Austria before the QRA flight would even only take off.

 

Their Typhoon base is at Zeltweg (map here), so even with a Mach 2 fighter it's utterly impossible to do air policing over the vast majority of Austria, including the capital.

 

People are talking about "air policing" as if it was magic, but it the best possible air policing effort can be calculated with operational research, and it's obvious that there's almost no air policing capacity in Austria regarding short incidents. They may intercept a Cessna 172 that has an unconscious pilot and circling somewhere, and that's about it.



#75 BJE

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 0254 AM

A few remarks:

 

1. Radar can see beyond the border, so an intercept can start before an unauthorized aircraft crosses the line.

2. The important thing is to have the capability to intercept, not necessarily to intercept everything. An undefended airspace invites violations, a defended one not so much.



#76 Loopycrank

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 0443 AM

A few remarks:

 

1. Radar can see beyond the border, so an intercept can start before an unauthorized aircraft crosses the line.

2. The important thing is to have the capability to intercept, not necessarily to intercept everything. An undefended airspace invites violations, a defended one not so much.

 

If the Austrians could only see aircraft at the edges of their border, regular air traffic control would be an intractable problem, let alone air policing.  Obviously, they can see aircraft quite some distance outside their borders with long-distance radars and they scramble aircraft proactively if they are unexpectedly approaching the border.

 

How do I know this?  Because I took several seconds to google it.  Truly, it was an exhaustive trawl of the scholarly resources.

 

Here's a tip; if a military reformer says that xyz military is doing something obviously idiotic, that military reformer is probably lying.

 

 


 

Info for nitpickers; API-T.

By "at most" I meant the tracer effect. Only after some here displayed disbelief I felt compelled to point out that a machinegun is no toy.

 

 

 

 

You would sound a lot smarter if you restricted your technical commentary to things that are harder to verify.  Unfortunately for you, there are reams of data of the relative effectiveness of heavy machine guns, rifle-caliber machine guns (even ones firing API almost exclusively in the BoB), 20mm and 30mm cannons, mainly from WWII but some from afterward.  Guess what?  There's a reason everyone switched to cannons after 1945.  20mm cannons are several times more effective than .50 caliber machine guns, and 30mm cannons are several times more effective than 20mm cannons.  Since then aircraft have only become tougher.

 

I think your problem is that you're so overwhelmingly ignorant of the subject that you have no idea what is and what is not hard to verify.

 

Can a 12.7x99mm gun poke holes in a modern combat airframe?  Sure.  Can it do much more than that?  No.  Not unless it got astronomically lucky.


Edited by Loopycrank, 18 July 2017 - 0444 AM.


#77 lastdingo

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 0919 AM

Nobody needs to see your fapping about gunfire effectiveness here. I already pointed out "A few holes and you've got serious explaining to do to your superiors".

 

Every pilot who lands with an AMX or Eurofighter and has to explain a 50cal hole in two black boxes is in BIG trouble.

Every pilot who lands an Airbus and has to explain 50cal holes in the wing, let alone cargo or passengers' heads, is in BIG trouble.

 

Air policing isn't about war, it's not about air combat. It's almost entirely about intercepting, radio calls, visual inspection and at most signalling with tracers (see the KLA007 incident where the pilot shot so poorly that the tracers were likely not in the field of view of the pilot and copilot).

Austria is not the Americas region where air policing is about intercepting drug courier aircraft.

 

You could have pointed out that the real problem with 50cal is that the bullets don't disintegrate and are thus too dangerous to people on the ground for warning shots. A dual feed for disintegrating tracer and API rounds could circumnavigate that. But you're not THAT competent.

 

Besides, the USAAF kept using 50cal well into the Korea War in jets. 'Everyone switched to autocannons' sometime between 1944 and the mid-50's.

 

---

 

Regarding the still-hypothetical case of an air policing aircraft ever intercepting & stopping a terrorist-controlled aircraft (which never ever happened):

  • A terrorist-controlled Airbus that lost radio contact after take-off at Vienna could not be intercepted before it reaches Vienna centre even by Typhoons.
  • A terrorist-controlled Airbus that lost radio contact after take-off at Bratislava could not be intercepted before it reaches Vienna centre even by Typhoons.
  • A terrorist-controlled Airbus that lost radio contact after take-off at Budapest would rather not be intercepted before it reaches Vienna centre (~240 km distance) even by Typhoons.

An attacker doesn't need to announce his intent from the outer rnage of land-based Austrian radars (which btw don't have such an extreme range anyway and I STRONGLY doubt that they have the capacity to listen to all air traffic control chatting in 400+ km radius around Austria so they most likely cannot tell a trouble aircraft from a routine aircraft until it's close unless some foreign air traffic controller tipped them off.

 

Maybe if you had done some more research you'd have found that I paid much attention to the air policing problem a decade ago already:

http://defense-and-f...tercept-vs.html

I went well beyond a mere google search there.


Edited by lastdingo, 18 July 2017 - 0925 AM.





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