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Danish Army Aquisitions


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#1 cbo

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 0814 AM

This week, a decision was - finally - made on aquisition of new SP artillery pieces for the Danish Army as well as an SP mortar system and new trucks.

 

The order for trucks went to Scandia in competition with Mercedes-Benz, MAN, Scania og Iveco. Mercedes and Iveco backed out during the process. The order is for 400-500 tactical trucks and 300-400 civilian trucks. The initial order is for 100 civilian trucks and 200 tactical trucks for about 400 million DKR. http://www.fmi.dk/ny...r-godkendt.aspx

 

CARDOM 10 from ESLAIT in Austria as choosen as the new 120mm SP mortar system to be mounted on the Piranha 5. The competitors were STK from Singapore, ESLAIT from Austria, RUAG (COBRA) from Switzerland and TDA from France. TDA and STK did not submit a bid. After further testing, CARDOM 10 was choosen. The order was for 15 120mm mortars with an option for an additional 6 for a total of 107 million DKR. http://www.fmi.dk/materiel/materiel-paa-vej/piranha5/Pages/typevalg-af-nyt-mortersystem.aspx 

 

A replacement for the aging 155mm M109A3s has been sought after for many years. In 2015, Israeli Elbit won the order with their ATMOS system, but the order was cancelled, allegedly because an EH-101 helicopter crashed in Afghanistan and needed to be repaired. The real reason might have been that it was politically controversial to buy an Israeli made system. The specifications have also changed over time with regards to protection, C-130 transportability etc. The 2017 competition started out with RUAG, Huta Stalowa Wola, BAE Bofors, Nexter Systems, Hanwha Techwin Systems, Elbit Systems and BAE Systems Land & Armaments and ended with only ELBIT and NEXTER left. Apparently, just like in 2015, ELBIT had the best system, but it was considered too expensive. To what extent political considerations have played a role is not clear, but the choice was NEXTERs CAESAR 8X8 mounted on Tatra trucks. The price for the system is 300 million DKR, with spare parts, fire control system, training and service the price ends up around 800 million to 1 billion DKR for the 15 guns.

These will be the only TATRA trucks in the Danish Army, which have lots of MAN and now Scania trucks. The nearest civilian TATRA workshop is in Berlin, so exactly how maintanance and repairs are going to be organized is a bit of a mystery.

http://www.fmi.dk/nyheder/Pages/typevalg-af-artillerisystemer-godkendt.aspx 

 

The Army is also expecting to update the Leopard 2A5-DK at Krauss-Maffei, 38 tanks in all, The update is supposed to keep them running until 2035. Piranha IIICs are also to be updated to last until 2030. The CV9035 DKs are also to be updated in comming years. The current ARV - Wisent 1 - is to be kept running for another 5-10 years before replacement and the army expects to buy a number of "armoured engineering vehicles".


Edited by cbo, 22 March 2017 - 1112 AM.


#2 carrierlost

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 1153 AM

 To what extent political considerations have played a role is not clear, but the choice was NEXTERs CAESAR 8X8 mounted on Tatra trucks. The price for the system is 300 million DKR, with spare parts, fire control system, training and service the price ends up around 800 million to 1 billion DKR for the 15 guns.

These will be the only TATRA trucks in the Danish Army, which have lots of MAN and now Scania trucks. The nearest civilian TATRA workshop is in Berlin, so exactly how maintanance and repairs are going to be organized is a bit of a mystery.

http://www.fmi.dk/nyheder/Pages/typevalg-af-artillerisystemer-godkendt.aspx 

 

Interesting. As I understand caesar is a bit of a lego - meaning you can have very different options. There is automatic loading, semi-automatic loading, cabin armored level (if at all) etc. Is anything known about what kind of configuration is being purchased?



#3 cbo

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 1409 PM

 

 To what extent political considerations have played a role is not clear, but the choice was NEXTERs CAESAR 8X8 mounted on Tatra trucks. The price for the system is 300 million DKR, with spare parts, fire control system, training and service the price ends up around 800 million to 1 billion DKR for the 15 guns.

These will be the only TATRA trucks in the Danish Army, which have lots of MAN and now Scania trucks. The nearest civilian TATRA workshop is in Berlin, so exactly how maintanance and repairs are going to be organized is a bit of a mystery.

http://www.fmi.dk/nyheder/Pages/typevalg-af-artillerisystemer-godkendt.aspx 

 

Interesting. As I understand caesar is a bit of a lego - meaning you can have very different options. There is automatic loading, semi-automatic loading, cabin armored level (if at all) etc. Is anything known about what kind of configuration is being purchased?

 

 

The cabin is armoured, allegedly STANAG Level II with an upgrade option to Level III. Apparently a semi-automatic configuration - this video allegedly shows the gun with a Danish crew during testing.

 

https://www.facebook...04202949655011/



#4 Panzermann

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 1557 PM

Makes me wonder why Tatra did not compete for the new lorries? But then military procurement likes to buy disjunct items. They could have put CESAR on MAN 8x8 or something else they have support for already.


Has anybody an idea how CESAR on TATRA compares to Zuzana?

#5 Panzermann

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 1609 PM

Isn't CARDOM a mortar from Israel originally made by Soltam?


on ESLAIT's website I can only find their A3MS mortar system that automates 60, 81 and 120 mm. But web sites are not always up to date or they act as intermediary?

http://www.eslait.at.../mortar-systems

#6 TonyE

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 1623 PM

Makes me wonder why Tatra did not compete for the new lorries? But then military procurement likes to buy disjunct items. They could have put CESAR on MAN 8x8 or something else they have support for already.


Has anybody an idea how CESAR on TATRA compares to Zuzana?

 

Could be that they wanted to go for an already developed version offered for export rather than to start from scratch just for the sake of only 15 vehicles.



#7 cbo

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 1140 AM

Makes me wonder why Tatra did not compete for the new lorries? But then military procurement likes to buy disjunct items. They could have put CESAR on MAN 8x8 or something else they have support for already.


Has anybody an idea how CESAR on TATRA compares to Zuzana?

 

Rumour has it, that after the 2014 aquisition process, which was won by ATMOS by Elbit but cancelled, Elbit choose to improve their offer by adjusting their system according to Danish Army nice-to-have suggestions: STANAG IV protection, MAN truck instead of TATRA etc. Nexter choose to replace the original Renault truck with a cheaper TATRA, retain STANAG II and reduce the price.

 

Cheaper won the day, not surprisingly. 



#8 cbo

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 1142 AM

Isn't CARDOM a mortar from Israel originally made by Soltam?


on ESLAIT's website I can only find their A3MS mortar system that automates 60, 81 and 120 mm. But web sites are not always up to date or they act as intermediary?

http://www.eslait.at.../mortar-systems

 

I dont know what the reasoning have been. I put a link to the website of the Danish Defence Acquisition and Logistics Organization in the first post. There is a picture of the system.


Edited by cbo, 22 March 2017 - 1142 AM.


#9 Panzermann

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 0942 AM

With these systems the Royal Danish have more mortar support than the Bundeswehr. The M113 mortar carriers are out of service, half a dozen Wiesel 2 mortar carriers and the old Tampella mortars which reach end of service life. <_<

Congratulations that the Danish finally get something procured finally.

#10 bd1

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 1607 PM

 

 

 To what extent political considerations have played a role is not clear, but the choice was NEXTERs CAESAR 8X8 mounted on Tatra trucks. The price for the system is 300 million DKR, with spare parts, fire control system, training and service the price ends up around 800 million to 1 billion DKR for the 15 guns.

These will be the only TATRA trucks in the Danish Army, which have lots of MAN and now Scania trucks. The nearest civilian TATRA workshop is in Berlin, so exactly how maintanance and repairs are going to be organized is a bit of a mystery.

http://www.fmi.dk/nyheder/Pages/typevalg-af-artillerisystemer-godkendt.aspx 

 

Interesting. As I understand caesar is a bit of a lego - meaning you can have very different options. There is automatic loading, semi-automatic loading, cabin armored level (if at all) etc. Is anything known about what kind of configuration is being purchased?

 

 

The cabin is armoured, allegedly STANAG Level II with an upgrade option to Level III. Apparently a semi-automatic configuration - this video allegedly shows the gun with a Danish crew during testing.

 

https://www.facebook...04202949655011/

 

if the loading arms broke/get pierced by shrapnel, then how to load this? make human pyramide and pass the 40+ kg shell over heads?  :wacko:



#11 Gregory

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 0757 AM

if the loading arms broke/get pierced by shrapnel, then how to load this? make human pyramide and pass the 40+ kg shell over heads?  :wacko:


Apparently it can be loaded manually - somehow. Maybe there is a stowed ladder? :) Also, if it gets hit by shrapnel, it's fairly likely that the crew will be incapacitated making the question rather moot.

#12 bd1

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 1504 PM

crew could survive in the cabin, or they could be hit on the road. or just be at lunch line. still better chances than the exposed mechanisms

 

to load it manually, the best way is earthen ramp probably






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