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The Us And The Destruction Of The British Empire


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#41 RETAC21

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 0224 AM

 

 

 

Its funny, reading PK Dicks 'The man in the High Castle', in one alternate timeline he writes, Britain and America go to war after WW2. Its not clear why, but presumably the issues of America wanting access to the Imperial market still exist. And that is a problem with the alternate timeline. America wanted markets to dig itself out from the wall street crash. WW2 inevitably dumped them in its lap, but what happens if the 2 Empires still exist and try blocking those pesky American's? I think there would inevitably have been conflict from it. And America would have had less ability to win it, because it never had the excuse of WW2 to rearm.

 

 

The last time the US and Britain went to war in 1812 there were more items to compete for and it didn't create long term effects like the creation of Germany did, so just access to market wouldn't be a casus belli.

 

In fact, without alternate timelines, there was competition between the US and Britain in the ME for example, with the US supporting Saudi Arabia and the British, Iran, to get access to oil.

 

Just like now, the resource rich countries would sell to whomever had the production plants lined up and would receive goods in exchange, access to the US market would be more important to UK based industry than denying access to India to US goods, so a trade agreement would be hammered out. Protectionism just wasn't good policy: https://microeconomi...s-policy-shift/


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#42 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 0240 AM

 

 

 

 

Its funny, reading PK Dicks 'The man in the High Castle', in one alternate timeline he writes, Britain and America go to war after WW2. Its not clear why, but presumably the issues of America wanting access to the Imperial market still exist. And that is a problem with the alternate timeline. America wanted markets to dig itself out from the wall street crash. WW2 inevitably dumped them in its lap, but what happens if the 2 Empires still exist and try blocking those pesky American's? I think there would inevitably have been conflict from it. And America would have had less ability to win it, because it never had the excuse of WW2 to rearm.

 

 

The last time the US and Britain went to war in 1812 there were more items to compete for and it didn't create long term effects like the creation of Germany did, so just access to market wouldn't be a casus belli.

 

In fact, without alternate timelines, there was competition between the US and Britain in the ME for example, with the US supporting Saudi Arabia and the British, Iran, to get access to oil.

 

Just like now, the resource rich countries would sell to whomever had the production plants lined up and would receive goods in exchange, access to the US market would be more important to UK based industry than denying access to India to US goods, so a trade agreement would be hammered out. Protectionism just wasn't good policy: https://microeconomi...s-policy-shift/

 

 

I dont disagree, but post 1918 with the country ruined, it was understandable, at least in the short term.


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#43 RETAC21

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 0350 AM

See my previous post, short term enlargening of the Empire (Middle East, Africa) added to the burden of WW1 and eventually endangered the whole construct. Understandable but lethal. 


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#44 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 0533 AM

Yes I think you are right. We should have given the French all the German bits of Africa. Other than the West coast and its diamonds, they were worthless.


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#45 Murph

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 0603 AM

A Peace to End all Peace was a great read, and really details some of the issues we are discussing here.  Wilson's sanctimonious hypocracy did not help matters in the long run either.  There is enough blame to go around.  "Lord" George also has to share the blame with Wilson.  


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#46 RETAC21

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 1148 AM

It didn't help but it just accelerated processes that were already running, for example, a certain Nguyen Ai Quoc presented this appeal to Secretary of State Robert Lansing in the vain hope the United States would pressure France to liberate Vietnam, then called Annam. Later in life, he changed his name to Ho Chi Minh


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#47 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 0155 AM

Was he Communist at the time, or did that come later?


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#48 urbanoid

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 0232 AM

Was he Communist at the time, or did that come later?

1920 - one of the founders of French Communist Party

 

i think that since that until 1945 he was doing exclusively commie things - agent of Comintern, advisor to Chicom forces etc.


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#49 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 0311 AM

Cheers. I was just wondering if the French could have dodged a bullet by handing the country over then, clearly not. But nobody was in the mood for divesting Empire after WW1 anyway I suppose.


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#50 Murph

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 0549 AM

What always shocks me was that rationing in the UK lasted till the 1950's, and I have never been able to get a good grasp on why it was so bad that rationing had to go on that long?  Was it a Socialist thing, or was the country just that wrecked?


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#51 Markus Becker

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 0607 AM

I put my money on "a socialist thing". Rationing in Germany ended in March 1950. Four years sooner than in the UK and our country was a lot worse for the wear than theirs. We too had voices that predicted all sorts of economic chaos rationing ended but our decision makers didn't listen to them. 


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#52 Harold Jones

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 1007 AM

What always shocks me was that rationing in the UK lasted till the 1950's, and I have never been able to get a good grasp on why it was so bad that rationing had to go on that long?  Was it a Socialist thing, or was the country just that wrecked?

My understanding was that rather than spending dollars on food imports they used them to pay back some of the US loans.


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#53 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 1016 AM

What always shocks me was that rationing in the UK lasted till the 1950's, and I have never been able to get a good grasp on why it was so bad that rationing had to go on that long?  Was it a Socialist thing, or was the country just that wrecked?

 

Partly socialism executing some economic policies, but you have to remember how much Britain was bombed. The railways were messed up (we only really got them sorted out 10 years after the war), we had lost valuable hulls, the docks were damaged, particularly in London, and we had lost large amounts of warehousing. Add on top of that we were broke, we were likely having a job buying food stuffs in bulk and storing them. The winter of 1947/48 may only have compliated matters. As you can see, we had a fuel shortage, so it may be that coal we were expecting to export for foreign currency, was having to be burnt at home.

https://en.wikipedia..._United_Kingdom

 

'The winter had severe effects on British industries, causing the loss of around 10% of the year's industrial production, 10 to 20% of cereal and potato crops, and a quarter of sheep stocks.'

 

Basically, we were shagged. I dont think if Churchill had got voted back in 1945, it would have been much better.


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#54 Ken Estes

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 1212 PM

Actually, Ho was busy rescuing Allied aviators adrift in the Gulf of Tonkin.


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#55 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 0222 AM

Actually, Ho was busy rescuing Allied aviators adrift in the Gulf of Tonkin.

 

I suppose in that he was following the Soviet line of the time?


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#56 Ken Estes

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 0424 AM

The Viet Mihn operated against the Japanese as well as the French 1941-onward, eventually with OSS help.


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#57 DougRichards

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 0450 AM

Actually, Ho was busy rescuing Allied aviators adrift in the Gulf of Tonkin.

 

Not the original Gulf of Tonkin Yahct Club?


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#58 Rick

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 0506 AM

The Viet Mihn operated against the Japanese as well as the French 1941-onward, eventually with OSS help.

Covered somewhat in this book. 

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/0966620801


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#59 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 0741 AM

 

Actually, Ho was busy rescuing Allied aviators adrift in the Gulf of Tonkin.

 

Not the original Gulf of Tonkin Yahct Club?

 

I thought Charlie didnt surf? :)


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#60 Murph

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 0823 AM

 

 

Actually, Ho was busy rescuing Allied aviators adrift in the Gulf of Tonkin.

 

Not the original Gulf of Tonkin Yahct Club?

 

I thought Charlie didnt surf? :)

 

LOL.  


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