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German Cos Of Usareur Appointed


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#41 Andreas

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 0316 AM

See also here - it's a very old term:

 

http://www.zeit.de/1...komplettansicht

 

All the best

 

Andreas


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#42 Ken Estes

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 1214 PM

OK, my tease is a bust. I stand corrected.


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#43 Andreas

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 1216 PM

Tease - humourless Germans.

 

Does not compute.  :unsure:

 

All the best

 

Andreas


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#44 sunday

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 1353 PM

BansheeOne is one of those rare Germans with a genuine sense of humor. I think Dave C. had something to do with that.


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#45 BansheeOne

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 0718 AM

There are lots of Germans with a sense of humor; the actual art is being able to revert to natural Teutonic humorlessness at the drop of a hat to deflect incoming jokes. :)


Edited by BansheeOne, 09 May 2015 - 0144 AM.

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#46 BansheeOne

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 0946 AM

Furthermore, as so far only other nations' forces have been put under German formations, the political question is being asked how Germany could reprocitate. One rather obvious idea is for the Dutch to take the lead in amphibious operations, not least because it would allow the German government to weasel out of long-standing plans to procure some amphibious support ships of its own As Soon As Money Is Available™; I guess the newly established Seebataillon could be assigned to the Korps Mariniers.

 

The latest rumor is that there are also plans for tighter naval cooperation, including joint use of submarines and amphibious support ships. Which makes a whole lot of sense.

 

:D I thought the same, but the one expressively mentioned is recently-finished JSS Karel Doorman which hasn't even been officially commissioned yet AFAIK (though she was already used for delivery of aid to the Ebola-stricken West African countries). She only narrowly survived a decision to not commission her at all for cost reasons in 2013, and is basically what Germany intended to get for an own JSS design if there ever was any money for it, so I guess sharing operating costs is good for both sides.

 

Thomas Wiegold reports that an evaluation to assign at least elements of the Seebataillon to the Korps Mariniers is indeed underway, possibly aimed at creating a Dutch-German amphibious group using the Dutch ships. Apparently not definite yet though.


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#47 Ken Estes

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 0348 AM

Nice update. Thanks, Banshee!


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#48 urbanoid

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 0419 AM

This seems now decided; talk is of a battalion from Panzergrenadierbrigade 41 "Vorpommern" coming under Polish command and vice versa by mid-2016. It will be units already based close to the mutual border, but they will remain in place; possibly Panzergrenadierbataillon 411 in Viereck or Panzerbataillon 413 in Torgelow on the German side, both just about 30 km from Szczecin. You can't really put a Polish battalion into East Germany either; all the time I was so hung up over the NATO-Russia Founding Act that I forgot the 2+4 Treaty stipulates that no foreign armed forces shall be based or moved there. Of course that was also meant to refer to Western NATO troops, but the language merely says "foreign", which is pretty unambiguous.

 

Looks like from the German side it will be an abovementioned Panzergrenadiere battalion, and one Leopard 2A5 tank battalion from 34th Armoured Cavalry Brigade from Polish side.


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#49 Andreas

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 0621 AM

There are lots of Germans with a sense of humor; the actual art is being able to revert to natural Teutonic humorlessness at the drop of a hat to deflect incoming jokes. :)

 

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

All the best

 

Andreas


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#50 BansheeOne

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 0706 AM

:D

 

Yeah, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen announced during her visit to 411 last week that the battalion will be assigned to the Polish side "step by step" over the next five years. Which I guess means transfering command authority step by step, not one company per year ...

 

On that note, I've also been wondering what assigning "elements" of the Seebataillon to the Korps Mariniers might mean. That battalion is a very diverse unit of individual specialized companies, parts of which are earmarked for national EvacOps missions; so the intention might be to provide company groups to the putative Dutch-German task force on a rotating basis. I haven't figured out their complete TO&E, but what I've been able to find is this:

 

 

 

Seebataillon

- Battalion HQ

- Medical Duty Squad

- Group Development Special Forces of the Navy

- Recruiting Team

 

 

Embarked Duty Company (provides boarding security teams for cooperative boarding operations and vessel protection detachments; both missions can be fulfilled simultaneously by an "embarked duty group")

- Company HQ

- Boat Squad (? This is from memory - can't find the report about company organization back)

 

2 x Embarked Duty Platoon (2/6//24//32)

- Platoon HQ (2/0/0//2)

- 3 x Boarding Security Team (0/2/8//10)

 

 

Shore Duty Company (3/47/140//190, with reserve platoon 4/56/172//232, but see note for sniper team below; provides port security and escort for road transport or by boat)

- Company HQ (1/7/2//10)

- Sniper Team (0/2/10//12; information from 2012 plans - may have become sniper platoon in reconnaissance company below as the latter seems to have been renamed from the original "support company" prior to establishment in 2014)

 

3 x Shore Duty Platoon (one reserve; 1/9/32//42)

- Platoon HQ (1/1/0//2)

- 4 x Shore Duty Team (0/2/8//10)

 

2 x NCO-led Shore Duty Platoon (0/10/32//42)

 

 

Mine Diver Company

- Company HQ

 

Mine Diver Platoon

- 9 x Mine Diver Sea Team (primary mission is deployment aboard minehunters and EO clearance to depths of 54 meters)

 

Mobile Mine Diver Platoon

- 3 x Mobile Mine Diver Team (primary mission is deployment aboard surface combatants and EO clearance of ports and amphibious landing zones ashore and to depths of ten meters)

 

Mine Diver Explosive Ordnance Disposal Platoon

- 4 x Mine Diver Explosive Ordnance Disposal Team (primary mission is direct support of the other companies or other troops including special forces of all services)

 

 

Reconnaissance Company

- Company HQ

 

Military Intelligence Platoon

(provides company intelligence support teams or squad-sized company intelligence support elements)

 

Technical Reconnaissance Platoon

(equipped with mobile IT and surveillance equipment, UAVs, diver detection sonar)

 

Sniper Platoon

(able to provide one team for sustained deployments and two more teams for limited deployments)

 

 

Training Center


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#51 Simon Tan

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 0749 AM

So that is a Naval thingie?
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#52 BansheeOne

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 1025 AM

Yeah, reduced amalgamation of the previous Navy Security Battalion and most of Specialized Forces Navy (Mine Diver and Boarding Company; the Kampfschwimmer became independent again under the nominal designation Special Forces Command Navy, just their small company and a training unit under a common HQ). It's the third time the Seebataillon name is used in the Bundeswehr; there was one 1959-1965 (one HQ, beachmaster, beach engineer and boat company each) and one 1988-1990 (just the beachmaster and Kampfschwimmer company, which were previously independent), both subordinated to the Bundesmarine's Amphibious Group which was disbanded in 1993.


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#53 Ken Estes

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 1152 AM

Looks like the Seebataillon amounts to handmaidens for the Navy, although updated for current problems, just as the USMC FAST Companies replaced the old shipboard Marine Detachments, unchanged since 1776,

 

This means no change in German doctrine since the Empire was founded, and the Heer will have to do the heavy lifting in the event amphibious operations other than raids are called for. IOW, how's the fording gear project going for Leo IIA7?

 

ETA: The Heer can find the still good landing plans for Oesel and Muenin in the Potsdam archives!


Edited by Ken Estes, 20 July 2015 - 1155 AM.

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#54 BansheeOne

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 0810 AM

I'll put this here rather than into the Cold War thread since it is aimed at the southern European periphery.

 

With fewer ships at their disposal, Marines turn to allies

 
By Steven Beardsley
Stars and Stripes
Published: July 16, 2015
 
NAPLES, Italy — The HMS Ocean is the flagship of the British Royal Navy, a 22,000-ton amphibious assault ship that can launch helicopters, landing craft and — if U.S. Marines get their way — the MV-22 tilt-rotor Osprey.
 
The Corps is working with European allies, including the United Kingdom, to see if it can deploy small aviation-based quick-response task forces aboard ships like the Ocean during a crisis. The initiative is the latest effort to offset what Marine leaders say is a lack of sealift for the kind of missions the service is increasingly emphasizing.
 
The Allied Maritime Basing Initiative would center on quick-response teams with about 150 Marines and a minimum of three to four MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft. It comes as Congress is hammering out a contentious defense bill and services are jockeying for more money by highlighting the dangers of operational deficits.
 
Yet Corps leaders say the new initiative is a creative response to a lack of resources in a region with big challenges. The 2012 attack against an American diplomatic facility in Benghazi, Libya, in which the U.S. ambassador and three others were killed, pointed to the need for fast-response military options in North Africa. The region’s danger was underlined last month when a gunman killed 38 people at a beach resort in Tunisia, the majority of them British tourists.
 
Navy warships rarely spend much time in European or African waters. Alternatives such as converted cargo ships have yet to arrive in the fleet in substantial number. Meanwhile, land bases are limited and don’t offer the flexibility of being afloat, said Brig. Gen. Norm Cooling, deputy commander of Marine Forces Europe-Africa in Stuttgart, Germany.
 
“None of those assets are currently here,” Cooling said in a recent phone interview. “What is here that we can use?”
 
The Marines have singled out ships belonging to five nations so far: The U.K., the Netherlands, France, Spain and Italy. The Corps will test capabilities for the first time in November during the large NATO exercise Trident Juncture, Cooling said, putting Marines aboard the Ocean for two weeks and working on the Spanish amphibious ship Juan Carlos I for several days and then the Ocean for two weeks.
 
The Navy’s aviation arm, Naval Air Systems Command, began working with Marines on the project in February, according to officials. Engineers will collect data and work with counterparts from each nation to certify the ships can work with Ospreys. They’ll look at flight decks, aerodynamics and load capabilities. A fully loaded Osprey can weigh more than 60,000 pounds and create significant heat on takeoff and landing.
 
Hangar space, elevator availability and resources for maintenance also will be looked at, according to the command. Marines landed an Osprey on the Juan Carlos I last year and are already familiar with some of the other ships. Some ships may have to make adjustments to handle the Osprey, Cooling said.
 
“Some can do it right off the bat and some need modifications, and obviously that will be the decision of our allies about whether they choose to take that expense or not,” Cooling said.
 
The general said even smaller foreign ships could be certified for Osprey flight operations, something that could come in handy for moving officials and resources between allied ships around an operation.
 
For years the Marines have said they need more ships to meet the demand from global commanders. With little relief in sight, they’ve created land-based task forces in Spain, Romania and Sicily. A heavy-weapons company is slated to arrive in Bulgaria later this year.
 
The Corps is also looking at adapting its large pre-positioning ships — cargo ships, essentially — to house Marines and handle Ospreys if they are needed in a pinch.
 
Marine leaders consider both alternatives stop-gaps to deploying more conventional warships to the region. Putting Marines on foreign ships is a similar workaround, Cooling said. “It gives us options we wouldn’t otherwise have.”

 

http://www.stripes.c...allies-1.358252


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#55 Panzermann

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 1001 AM

Handily serves as a sales pitch for Osprey.
"see? it can operate off your ships. Wanna buy?"
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#56 Ken Estes

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 1108 AM

Nobody's going to buy them. The USMC is making a pitch for a capability to outdo the other services with no assets in the theater. The so-called Benghazi scenario remains imaginary because nobody would want to put 3-4 helos of troops into a zone with no prep and no intel. Gen. Dempsey said it straight within 24 hours of the event that there were simply no forces at hand to make a military response feasible. It remains so today, if the Sixth Fleet is so weak.


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#57 DB

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 0639 AM

Nevertheless, qualifying a cross-decking capability rather than winging it when needed seems like a good plan.

 

EMI on flat tops is serious concern - for those who don't know, it is RN practice to qualify each aviation type for each designated deck landing spot against EMI from shipboard emissions. Release To Service restrictions apply to some types and some deck spots on Ocean, for example.


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#58 BansheeOne

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 1413 PM

On the Dutch-German armor battalion, read somewhere last week that the Dutch will in fact transfer their remaining Leopard 2s to Germany which will update them for service in the joint unit. Which to me sounds like all the tanks in the battalion will be "owned" by the Bundeswehr and made me puzzle whether there will in fact be a distinct Dutch company, or they're going one step further with personnel of both nations fully integrated.

 

On cooperation in submarines, saw sometime ago already the Dutch are looking to replace their Walruses by a joint Damen-Saab development, so integration with Germany would be supposedly rather organizational.


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#59 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 1745 PM

On the Dutch-German armor battalion, read somewhere last week that the Dutch will in fact transfer their remaining Leopard 2s to Germany which will update them for service in the joint unit. Which to me sounds like all the tanks in the battalion will be "owned" by the Bundeswehr and made me puzzle whether there will in fact be a distinct Dutch company, or they're going one step further with personnel of both nations fully integrated.

 

On cooperation in submarines, saw sometime ago already the Dutch are looking to replace their Walruses by a joint Damen-Saab development, so integration with Germany would be supposedly rather organizational.

 

One of the tank companies in the 414th Panzer Battalion will be all Dutch personnel, with the other companies being German.  Here's the Jane's article that has the information:

 

 

Dutch mechanized brigade to be integrated into German panzer division

 

The Royal Netherlands Army's 43 Mechanized Brigade will be integrated into the Bundeswehr's 1st Panzer Division, German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen and her Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert, told their respective parliaments on 15 September.

 

A formal agreement to this effect will be signed later this year, with integration work starting at the end of the year or beginning of 2016, and the unit becoming operational at the end of 2019.

 

Before it is integrated into the 1st Panzer Division, 43 Mechanized Brigade will be reinforced by German 414 Panzer Battalion, which will include a Dutch Leopard 2A6 tank company with 100 personnel based in Bergen-Hohne, Germany. The remainder of 43 Mechanized Brigade will stay in the Netherlands.

 

To ensure commonality, Germany will upgrade the Netherlands' 16 remaining Leopard 2A6 tanks to A7 standard and pool them with its own Leopard 2 tanks. The Netherlands will lease the tanks necessary to form a company of 18 Leopard 2s.


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#60 BansheeOne

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 0108 AM

Ah, leasing solution. Hadn't seen that bit, thanks.
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