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Meanwhile In Turkey


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#21 swerve

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 0919 AM

 

Bear in mind that the Moors in Spain were there as a result of Spain being invaded in the 7th Century. So one might disagree with any form of ethnic cleansing, but then ultimately they can be regarded as distinctly uninvited in the first place. Particularly in a Catholic nation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

it makes the context different. Best I can tell, the Armenians were there long before the Ottoman Empire even existed.

https://en.wikipedia...nians_in_Turkey

 

I would agree the Ottomans seem to have had  a relatively good record up to WW1, simply because without it the Empire could hardly have held together. But not perfect I think we would agree.

Stuart, 

 

yeah, but most of those 'Moors' in Spain were probably converts who'd adopted the language, not immigrants. Same with Muslims in the Balkans, Turks in Turkey, Arabs in N. Africa, etc.

 

'Relatively good' in the context of the Ottoman empire means stressing the 'relatively', The Ottomans didn't do things others didn't also do, & did less than some, but they weren't nice.

 

BTW, few people pay any attention to the ethnic cleansing that went on in SE Europe as the Ottoman Empire declined & retreated. Everywhere up to Hungary was sprinkled with mosques, attended by local converts & immigrants as well as Turkish officials & garrisons. No trace left now across much of that territory. The numbers were quite small in Hungary (taken by the Habsburgs between 1683 & 1698), & in what is now Romania the Turks ruled indirectly, through local clients, so there was no Turkish settlement or conversion, but in Greece & Serbia a large proportion of the population was Muslim, some Turkish, some Albanian & others, but many Serbian & Greek-speaking, when they got their independence in the early 19th century. You wouldn't know it now. Those who survived the slaughter fled, & the traces they left were obliterated. The Greeks (perhaps also the Serbs: I've not read up on that) also massacred Jews. It was well documented at the time by philhellene Europeans who'd volunteered to help the Greeks, some of who left in disgust because of it. They described, for example, Greeks hunting Turkish children for sport. The Greeks made no secret of it at the time. Some of their leaders published entirely un-regretful accounts of massacres.


Edited by swerve, 17 November 2014 - 0928 AM.

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#22 Roman Alymov

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 0938 AM

 

 I still think if one judges the Ottomans on the Armenian genocide alone, thats shocking enough.

 

I think Armenian genocide is not proper example to judge Ottoman Empire, since it happened when this empire was already falling apart to be replaced by newly invented national state and was, to some degree, one of signs of this falling apart. But there are lots of other dark pages over long Turkish history to point at – still, everybody got some….

  

By the way current events might be signs of national state Turkey to be replaced – by religious state?


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#23 urbanoid

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 0940 AM

By the way current events might be signs of national state Turkey to be replaced – by religious state?

Or a mix of both.


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#24 Simon Tan

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 0958 AM

Islamic nationalists.....the AKP.


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#25 Panzermann

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1023 AM

Islamic nationalists.....the AKP.


That is their plan obviously. And pandering to religious and patriotic feelings is always cheap way to sedate the population and detract from the shit Erdogan and his buddies are into, as there does not seem to have formed a wider opposition in spite of all the scandals that surfaced in the last few years.

I think what put the AKP on top in Turkish politics is the influx of rural population into the big cities. Turks living in Ankara or Istanbul have had a very secular western oriented culture until recently when the more religiously minded farmers moved in for jobs in the big city. What definitly helped Erdogan and his party is the economic development of the last decades, although they take the credit for what the governments before them started with modernising Turkish education etc.

Edited by Panzermann, 17 November 2014 - 1025 AM.

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#26 Colin

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1124 AM

 

Six HMCS Toronto crew members help battle fire in Turkey

Six members of Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship (HMCS) Toronto jumped into action while eating out at a restaurant during their port visit to Antalya, Turkey on Friday, when a fire broke out in the building.

The crew members, along with two men from the air detachment, used a fire hose, which was rigged outside in the street, to cool the structure and put out the fire. They also assisted with evacuation efforts and left only after the local fire department took control of the scene.

Lieut. (Navy) Samuel Gaudreault, Lieut. (Navy) Daniel Willis, Master Cpl. Shirley Jardine, Leading Seaman Jean-Francois Martineau, Cpl. Jo Boivin, and Able Seaman Chris Richards are trained as first responders for fire and flood control, as are all members of the Royal Canadian Navy’s ship companies.

“My officers and crew are professional sailors, which they demonstrate constantly on board HMCS Toronto, in their daily work,” said Commander Jason Armstrong, commanding officer of the ship. “These men responded instinctively, bravely and selflessly to a dangerous situation. Their fortitude and training are proven. The entire ship’s company is very proud to have them as part of the team.”

HMCS Toronto was briefly in Antalya after participating in an anti-submarine exercise in the eastern Mediterranean Sea led by Turkey.

http://www.thestar.c..._in_turkey.html


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#27 swerve

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1251 PM

 

 

 I still think if one judges the Ottomans on the Armenian genocide alone, thats shocking enough.

 

I think Armenian genocide is not proper example to judge Ottoman Empire, since it happened when this empire was already falling apart to be replaced by newly invented national state and was, to some degree, one of signs of this falling apart. But there are lots of other dark pages over long Turkish history to point at – still, everybody got some….

 

All true. The massacres of Armenians were done under the Young Turks, who overthrew the Sultan (but kept him as a figurehead) in 1908. They were Turkish nationalists rather than imperialists, & keen on modernisation - in some respects.


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#28 bojan

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1311 PM

...The Greeks (perhaps also the Serbs: I've not read up on that) also massacred Jews...

Not here. Antisemitism was largely unknown around here until late 19th century, and even then it was relatively mild. That is mostly due the most population having no contact with Jews as they were mostly city population. Main wave started after WW1 when right wing movements tried to identify Jews with Communism, but most people did not care as there were a lot of communists and socialist sympathizers (IIRC Communist party was 2nd by number of votes on 1st parliamentarian elections).

That noted, there were also numerous enclaves of Turks left, just in much lesser numbers then before. There are parts of Belgrade that were mostly Turkish until WW1, only after WW1 and large urbanization those lost a majority. There are some traces still, school in Belgrade where my mother worked for 32 years had steady ~5-10% of Muslim children.

Those were Muslims that stood by the Serbs in two uprisings (especially 1st one was more "popular revolt" against unpopular semi-independent regime in Belgrade), with sometimes as much as 10% of those fighting vs Turks being Muslims.


Edited by bojan, 17 November 2014 - 1315 PM.

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#29 swerve

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1331 PM

I'm not sure that it was anti-semitism in Greece. Jews were mostly urban, as you say they were in Serbia. Turks, & Muslims in general, were also much more urban than Greeks, & from my reading, the war in the Morea (Peloponnese peninsula - the centre of the Greek uprising of 1821) seems to have consisted largely of Greek sieges of towns, & near-total massacres of the mainly Muslim populations when the towns fell - along with the Jews. I suspect that the Jews weren't singled out, they were just seen as part of the Ottoman urban-based structure.

 

 

Greek identity seems to be closely tied to the Greek Orthodox church. In the 1920s, many Greek-speaking "Bulgarians" were shipped to Bulgaria, & Bulgarian-speaking "Greeks" sent back. They were identified as Bulgarian or Greek by whether they worshipped in Greek or Bulgarian Orthodox churches. Ditto with the exchange of "Turks" & "Greeks". Identification was by religion.


Edited by swerve, 17 November 2014 - 1349 PM.

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#30 Roman Alymov

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1335 PM


Those were Muslims that stood by the Serbs in two uprisings (especially 1st one was more "popular revolt" against unpopular semi-independent regime in Belgrade), with sometimes as much as 10% of those fighting vs Turks being Muslims.

 

Is it a difference between Turks and ethnic Serbs converted into Muslim faith? Or they are all considered Turks?

In this BBC documentary I mentioned earlier was a story of many Greece Turks unwilling to go to Turkey on “population exchange” (ready even to convert to Christianity if needed) but they were not allowed to stay.


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#31 bojan

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1502 PM

I'm not sure that it was anti-semitism in Greece. Jews were mostly urban, as you say they were in Serbia...

 

Hm, might be a fact that Serbia first got autonomy, and then gradually got independence, so there were not a lot of "taking towns" (there were in 1st uprising, but there were almost no large-scale massacres of Muslim population in that one).

That noted, Bosnia under Austria also lost quite a bit % of Muslim population, while Serbian and Croatian populations % increased - OFC this was further complicated by a fact that there were people who were Muslim and identified as Croats or Serbs - Muhamed Mehmedbasic being well known example.


Edited by bojan, 17 November 2014 - 1525 PM.

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#32 RETAC21

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 1606 PM

 

Stuart, 

 

yeah, but most of those 'Moors' in Spain were probably converts who'd adopted the language, not immigrants. Same with Muslims in the Balkans, Turks in Turkey, Arabs in N. Africa, etc.

 

'Relatively good' in the context of the Ottoman empire means stressing the 'relatively', The Ottomans didn't do things others didn't also do, & did less than some, but they weren't nice.

 

BTW, few people pay any attention to the ethnic cleansing that went on in SE Europe as the Ottoman Empire declined & retreated. Everywhere up to Hungary was sprinkled with mosques, attended by local converts & immigrants as well as Turkish officials & garrisons. No trace left now across much of that territory. The numbers were quite small in Hungary (taken by the Habsburgs between 1683 & 1698), & in what is now Romania the Turks ruled indirectly, through local clients, so there was no Turkish settlement or conversion, but in Greece & Serbia a large proportion of the population was Muslim, some Turkish, some Albanian & others, but many Serbian & Greek-speaking, when they got their independence in the early 19th century. You wouldn't know it now. Those who survived the slaughter fled, & the traces they left were obliterated. The Greeks (perhaps also the Serbs: I've not read up on that) also massacred Jews. It was well documented at the time by philhellene Europeans who'd volunteered to help the Greeks, some of who left in disgust because of it.

Absolutely. Im just illustrating that from the Spanish perspective they could be seen as outsiders, which is obviously not the case with the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. A better comparison might be the Irish Famine, and that is something we hardly engineered for the purpose.

 

All that is doubtless true, Ive just got in the back of my mind the memory of what happened in Edward 1st's reign to the Jews in England. Admittedly we were rather more tolerant than many other European states, but clearly we had our moments. I still think if one judges the Ottomans on the Armenian genocide alone, thats shocking enough.

 

 

No, they weren't, after 8 centuries they were integrated with the Christians, but that doesn't mean everything was peachy, as there were a number of rebellions:

 

"On January 2, 1492, the leader of the last Muslim stronghold in Granada surrendered to the armies of a recently united Christian Spain (after the marriage of Ferdinand II of Aragón and Isabella I of Castile, the Catholic Monarchs). They forced the remaining Jews to leave Spain, convert to Roman Catholic Christianity or be killed for not doing so. To exert social and religious control, in 1480, Isabella and Ferdinand agreed to allow the Inquisition in Spain. Granada's Muslim population rebelled in 1499. The revolt lasted until early 1501, giving the Castilian authorities an excuse to void the terms of the Treaty of Granada (1491). In 1501, Castilian authorities delivered an ultimatum to Granada's Muslims: they could either convert to Christianity or be expelled.
 
The Inquisition was aimed mostly at Jews and Muslims who had overtly converted to Christianity but were thought to be practicing their faiths secretly. They were respectively called marranos and moriscos. However, in 1567 King Philip II directed Moriscos to give up their Arabic names and traditional dress, and prohibited the use of the Arabic language. In reaction, there was a Morisco uprising in the Alpujarras from 1568 to 1571. In the years from 1609 to 1614, the government expelled Moriscos. The historian Henri Lapeyre estimated that this affected 300,000 out of an estimated total of 8 million inhabitants"
 
 
Note the last ones were expelled more than a century after the Jews, some of which still use an old form of Spanish and remained attached to Sapin enough that recently they have been granted nationality if they so wish. http://en.wikipedia....i/Sephardi_Jews

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#33 Panzermann

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 1150 AM

The sephardic jews also have differing religious traditions from mainstream orthodox jews, which alienates both groups from each other. No wonder some think of moving back to Spain, where they would be some small exotic group that goes unnoticed for their small numbers . North Africa where they also came from is out I guess. ;)
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#34 DADI

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 0921 AM

Israel livid over new Hamas headquarters in Turkey

Jerusalem urges NATO to impose sanctions on Ankara after learning it let Hamas set up operational headquarters in Turkey • HQ said to be headed by arch-terrorist Saleh al-Arouri, believed to be behind dozens of attacks against Israelis.

141699281484882812a_b.jpg

 

This triangle of Turkey-Qatar-Hamas ...

How long can the west keep looking the other way? 

 


Edited by DADI, 26 November 2014 - 0937 AM.

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#35 Sardaukar

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 1008 AM

As long as they kill only (or mostly) Israelis....


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#36 Mistral

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 1056 AM

Someone should send him an invitation to this movie  :P

 

http://en.wikipedia..../Dracula_Untold


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#37 DADI

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 0517 AM

Security forces arrested more than 30 Hamas operatives suspected of involvement in plot uncovered in September. 

The Shin Bet and IDF thwarted a large-scale, transnational Hamas terrorism network that was preparing to carry out an array of deadly attacks against Israelis.
It was cleared for publication on Thursday that the network planned to target the landmark Teddy soccer stadium in Jerusalem, the capital's light rail system, car bombings, and kidnappings of Israelis in the West Bank and overseas.
The nerve center of the network was situated in Hamas's headquarters in Turkey, the Shin Bet added. Additional intended targets included infiltrations into Israeli communities, shooting and bombing attacks against Israeli traffic and military targets in the West Bank, and setting up terrorist cells in Jordan in order to carry out cross-border attacks into Israel...

 

big.jpg

Lovely freedom fighters,,,

 

 

Erogan's Turkey has replaced Syria as the Hamas HQ..


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#38 Mistral

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 0821 AM

I expect that we will be told that muslims went first on the moon as well. muslims discovered the earth is a sphere 1.200 years ago.

 

http://www.hurriyetd...9&NewsCatID=338


Edited by Mistral, 30 November 2014 - 0821 AM.

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#39 Colin

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 1515 PM

Muslims were good at borrowing or hiring the best at that time

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Eratosthenes


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#40 mnm

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 1646 PM

Planck's Constant, the Diesel engine, the Peter Principle, the Archimedes Theoreme and especially Murphy's law are Muslim inventions too.


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