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Himalaya Border Disputes Between India And China

Bhutan india china border

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#21 JasonJ

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 0828 AM

Road work construction is said to have continued.

Spoiler

http://www.scmp.com/...ll-doklam-month


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#22 Josh

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 0951 AM

Haven't seen an official Indian reaction yet. Curious what changed China's mind. Trump get out of free card like Saudi and Qatar?
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#23 JasonJ

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 1000 AM

This report says India hasn't responding yet because the road construction was just a widening and improvement on whatever road that has already been built rather road extension southwards.

Spoiler

https://timesofindia...ow/60960202.cms


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#24 nemo

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 2228 PM

catchnews.com

Doklam: How India misjudged China’s intentions and it escalated into a major standoff
7-8 minutes

The India-China military standoff at Doklam was apparently based on Indian misperception of Chinese intentions.

An alternative narration of events leading to the military standoff suggests that the skirmish might have been blown out of proportion and was completely unnecessary. And even though eventually the standoff was resolved through diplomatic negotiations, India was not a net gainer at the end of it.

The Chinese army personnel are still present at a distance of 250 metres from the site of the confrontation. This is where they were before June 16. The Indian Army meanwhile has vacated the area that the Chinese wanted vacated.

According to sources in the security establishment, the standoff which was projected as a result of Chinese road construction activity in the Doklam area was anything but that. A Chinese motorable road apparently already exists in the area. It has been there since 2003 or 2005, according to different estimates.

The standoff, according to these sources, had its origins not in any road-construction activity in the disputed area between China and Bhutan but in the destruction of two Indian Army bunkers in the area.

There are apparently two dozen bunkers in that area. Known as Self-Help Bunkers (SBH), they are not occupied all the time. The Chinese have for long objected to two bunkers that they claim have been built in an area which is within their perception line of their border with Bhutan.

Although Bhutan claims the area, Indian Army units under the control of 17 Mountain Division at Gangtok in Sikkim, patrol it. This includes the area where the two disputed bunkers are located.

The Chinese periodically use bulldozers to destroy the two bunkers whenever they are unoccupied. The Indian Army units patrolling the area equally periodically reconstruct them. This is not considered unusual activity in a disputed border area. Since this is China’s border with Bhutan but is patrolled by the Indian Army, the issue is never raised to a higher pitch.

In November 2007 also the Chinese Peoples’ Liberation Army (PLA) had moved into Bhutan's Doklam Plateau and demolished a hut close to some Indian bunkers. The hut was apparently a rest house used by the Indian Army. The Indian side kept the matter quiet as the bunkers were located in Bhutan but manned by Indian Army personnel. In July that year, the PLA had also written to the 17 Mountain Division Headquarters about two “illegal” Indian bunkers but they were at Batangla near the disputed tri-junction (where the borders of India, Bhutan and China meet) warning of “adverse consequences” if they were not removed. The matter was swept under the carpet as the two armies were to conduct joint exercises a month later in December 2007. In 2008 also the PLA had destroyed two bunkers in precisely the same area in Doklam where this June’s standoff took place.

Whenever new Indian Army unit are deployed in the area, the outgoing units apparently don’t inform the incoming unit that the breaking and reconstruction of these two bunkers in particular takes place routinely.

According to sources, this summer when a new army unit was deployed for patrolling the area they decided to spruce up the bunkers, including the two disputed ones. The PLA soldiers suddenly saw something new happening– the Indian soldiers were painting the two bunkers in question in regulation brownish-saffron army colour. The PLA soldiers could not comprehend the enthusiasm of the newly deployed Indian army unit and thought that something more permanent was being built.

Predictably, when the bunkers were unoccupied, the PLA brought out its bulldozers and demolished the bunkers. When the Indian patrol discovered this, not knowing the previous history of such demolitions and reconstructions, they informed their superior officers about the aggressiveness of the Chinese.

The message that Chinese bulldozers were in action in Doklam, according to sources, went all the way up to the Major General who is the General Officer Commanding of the 17 Mountain Division based at Gangtok. He in turn informed his bosses in Army Headquarters in Delhi.

Sources claim that the Chinese use of bulldozers was linked to possible road construction activities by the army authorities sitting in Gangtok. They presumed that the Chinese were extending the existing road from Doka La (Doka Pass) through the Doklam Plateau towards the Bhutan Army camp at Zompelri near the Jampheri Ridge.

In a fact sheet issued on 2 August, Beijing also claimed that Indian soldiers had interrupted road-building activity by the PLA in the Doklam area on 18 June 18 and that India had been informed in advance about its road-building activity in the area. India also brought in bulldozers into the disputed area.

How does this square with the claim that the confrontation with China started over the destruction of two Indian Army bunkers? Security sources who questioned the nature of the confrontation still insisted that there was no road-building activity going on when the stand-off began on 16 June 16.
They said it was quite possible that the Chinese intend to build a road in that area and that often the Chinese strengthen their claim to disputed areas by starting construction activities there. The Indian side, they claimed, perhaps aware of the road-building intention of the Chinese, escalated the issue all the way to Delhi.

“The fact remains that the confrontation began with the local Indian Army patrol complaining of the Chinese destroying their two bunkers,” they said.

The senior army officers in Delhi also believed the road construction theory and instructed the local army unit to prevent any road construction and stay put. Bhutan was taken on board and a full-scale military standoff began. General Bipin Rawat in fact visited both the 17 Mountain Division at Gangtok and the 27 Mountain Division at Kalimpong to boost the morale of his forces and take stock of the ground situation.

The Chinese, meanwhile, could not fathom why India was over-reacting. The Chinese media went on the offensive; and on the Indian side, security experts exaggerated and overplayed the strategic threat to India from the Chinese road construction activity. A full-scale propaganda war over claims, counter-claims and charges and counter-charges began.

At the end of it, through a “near-simultaneous” withdrawal of forces to pre-June 16 positions, the standoff was resolved. Both sides claimed victory but the Chinese went back only 250 metres while to maintain peace India had to give up patrolling the area where two destroyed bunkers had existed. The Chinese got what they wanted.

Although the military standoff is behind us, perhaps an assessment still needs to be made of the strategic cost-benefit analysis of the confrontation, the nature of information flow, the response and analysis systems within the Indian armed forces and the wisdom of the current crop of Indian Army commanders.


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#25 nemo

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 2259 PM

See the above *Indian* article on why the whole mass started.  The fact is that India overstepped, and was forced to back down. China was kind enough not to rub India's face in it. When this mess ended, the spokes person on Indian side announced near simultaneous withdrawal, but the spokes person on Chinese side specifically said that they will construct whenever and whatever they see fit -- and there is no objection from the Indian side.  And stated in the article, India will no longer patrol disputed area, so the matter is moot.  Used to be that the presence of Chinese in this area was periodic patrols, but now it seems China is going to establish permanent all season garrison opposite to Indian garrison already in place.

 

Also note India no longer have preponderance in power in this sector.  China has moved about 3 brigades into the area. While in terms of manpower,  both side are about equal, but they are NOT in terms of firepower. Indian mountain troops are particularly deficient in artillery -- heavy artillery like 155mms are corps level assets.  Used to be that a single Chinese mechanized division has more firepower than an Indian Mountain Corps, but China just reorganized divisions into brigades (i.e. corp command brigades directly).  One of those brigades may have more firepower than the whole Indian Mountain division station in the area.

 

 

This report says India hasn't responding yet because the road construction was just a widening and improvement on whatever road that has already been built rather road extension southwards.

Spoiler

https://timesofindia...ow/60960202.cms


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#26 Nobu

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 2036 PM

Just as plausibly, the Indians realized that nobody in the first world really gives a shit about their border disputes with China.

 

Not enough to make a ripple in the global economic balance at least.


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#27 nemo

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 2322 PM

Just as plausibly, the Indians realized that nobody in the first world really gives a shit about their border disputes with China.

 

Not enough to make a ripple in the global economic balance at least.

 

Not only others do not care for it, neither does the other real  party in the dispute -- Bhutan. The area in question is already unofficially settled when China is willing to trade larger disputed area for it. Bhutan wanted the territorial dispute with China to be settle as quick as possible so it can establish official diplomatic ties with China.  However,  India had repeated tried to sabotage the settlement -- issue of Doklam, for example, is raised only midway in the discussion, when a previous proposal was about to be agreed to. Do note that Bhutan has never directly state that they asked India to intervene in this, and India didn't even bother to ask Bhutan before they send the troops.  Indian diplomacy in its own neighborhood is actually quite aggressive, even colonial in terms of temperament, much more so compare to China.


Edited by nemo, 08 October 2017 - 0301 AM.

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#28 JasonJ

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 0157 AM

Some Indian politician (I guess of noteworthiness, maybe not) asking what is Modi's plan beyond chest thumping about Doklam.

Spoiler

https://kashmirobser...on-doklam-24098


Edited by JasonJ, 08 October 2017 - 0158 AM.

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#29 Nobu

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 0959 AM

Uncomfortable moments at the next BRICS/Shanghai Co-Prosperity conference I would imagine. In other words, thirdworlder problems.


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#30 chino

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 1039 AM

 

Just as plausibly, the Indians realized that nobody in the first world really gives a shit about their border disputes with China.

 

Not enough to make a ripple in the global economic balance at least.

 

Not only others do not care for it, neither does the other real  party in the dispute -- Bhutan. The area in question is already unofficially settled when China is willing to trade larger disputed area for it. Bhutan wanted the territorial dispute with China to be settle as quick as possible so it can establish official diplomatic ties with China.  However,  India had repeated tried to sabotage the settlement -- issue of Doklam, for example, is raised only midway in the discussion, when a previous proposal was about to be agreed to. Do note that Bhutan has never directly state that they asked India to intervene in this, and India didn't even bother to ask Bhutan before they send the troops.  Indian diplomacy in its own neighborhood is actually quite aggressive, even colonial in terms of temperament, much more so compare to China.

 

As I'd observed in my earlier post about my trip to Nepal, India is not the benevolent giant neighbor for the region. In fact, with their caste system firmly in place, they are not a pleasant lot when they feel you are inferior to them.

 

China for the time being is eager to please and throw money about. So Bhutan is in a hurry to go git some.

 

Bhutanese and Nepalese are so pathetically poor many families have to sell their daughters into prostitution in India.


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#31 Panzermann

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 0703 AM

Modi has visited Xi
 

politics

Sudden Modi-Xi Meeting Signals Diplomatic Thaw Between Neighbors

Bloomberg News

  • Prime minister’s ‘informal summit’ trip announced late Sunday
  • Meeting set to start Friday in central Chinese city of Wuhan

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi will travel to meet Chinese President Xi Jinping this week, as world’s two most-populous countries seek to reduce tensions after a tense border dispute last year.

The “informal summit” between Xi and Modi will be held Friday and Saturday in Wuhan, the capital of the central province of Hubei, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said Sunday at a news conference with India External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj.

The meeting is part of an intensifying dialogue between the two leaders whose countries comprise more than one-third of the world’s population and 18 percent of global gross domestic product. It comes as both powers seek to reduce risk in their regional environments as China faces down U.S. President Donald Trump’s threaten trade actions and Modi seeks to keep India’s economy on track ahead of the 2019 election.

“It is very rare for two major countries like China and India to meet together so frequently,” said Qian Feng, a researcher on international relations with Tsinghua University in Beijing. “For both sides, a peaceful border and a mutually beneficial trading partnership are obviously more in line with their interests. For this reason, the two sides are tacitly recovering bilateral relations rapidly.”

Global Turbulence

Xi and Modi met last September and are scheduled to meet again in June for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization meeting in China’s eastern port city of Qingdao. Both leaders have strong domestic reasons to put tensions aside.

“For China, the ongoing trade war with the U.S. prompted Beijing to adopt a more sensible attitude towards India,” Qian said, adding that Modi’s economic and social reforms have slowed. “The turbulent global economic situation has increased economic risk in India.”

The countries’ foreign ministers emphasized the broader strategic context behind the meeting. Xi and Modi would have “communications of a strategic nature concerning big changes happening in the world,” Wang told reporters in Beijing. “They will also exchange views on overall, long-term and strategic matters concerning the future of China-India relations.”

The two sides are setting aside formalities for the meeting in the hope of a breakthrough before border tensions resurface, according to Shailesh Kumar, political risk firm Eurasia Group’s Asia director.

“The informal nature and timing of the summit indicates that first, both sides want to be able to discuss all topics in a free and cordial manner without the standard formalities,” Kumar said. “Second, they want to meet before the summer, when many worry tensions between both armies in the mountain areas could rise again as the weather is less hostile.”

The move toward rapprochement was facilitated by a meeting between Xi and Modi last September, when they held their first talks since defusing a border stand-off in remote region between India, Bhutan and China’s Tibet region. Swaraj, the Indian foreign minister, described peace and tranquility on the countries’ border areas as an “essential prerequisite for the smooth development of bilateral relations.”

Easing Tensions

The summit was good news in the short-term for investors in Asia, Kumar said. “Priorities will be to build deeper ties to mitigate any security related disagreements while also establishing a framework to handle any issues as they arise,” he said.

Longer term, though, differences between the two powers are likely to resurface. “Distrust is high and tensions will remain, particularly given China’s financial involvement in Pakistan, which India sees as a strategic rather than economic engagement that can hurt India,” Kumar said.

Tensions have lingered since China defeated India in a brief border war in 1962. The residence of the Tibetan religious leader, the Dalai Lama, in the mountain town of Dharamsala in Northern India has also long angered Beijing.

They’ve been exacerbated by Beijing’s rapid expansion of its political and economic ties in India’s backyard through Xi’s ambitious Belt and Road infrastructure initiative. Projects include railway building in Pakistan and port projects in Sri Lanka.

Against that backdrop, former Indian foreign secretary S. Jaishankar told India’s Asian News International that the summit was “certainly a very bold step.”

“The fact that they have agreed on an informal summit shows that the two leaders realize the importance of this relationship,” he said. “They have taken on the responsibility themselves on putting it on a better course.”

 

https://www.bloomber...diplomatic-thaw


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#32 Panzermann

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 0956 AM

while Trump and the other G7 do their dance with yesnoyesno, China and India setlle their border disagreements and broaden their relation. Including more bollywood films in PRC cinemas. (and more kung fu in India) :D
 

Modi, Xi focus on border peace, better communication between militaries

The “informal” nature of the summit meant that PM Modi and President Xi Jinping were not expected to talk specifics but it was evident that the leaders had reached a consensus not to allow the festering border dispute to hijack ties.



Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Xi Jinping on Saturday agreed on steps aimed at strengthening communications and building trust between the militaries of India and China, a move aimed at effectively managing differences on the border and averting a Doklam-like stand-off.

At the end of their first informal summit in this central Chinese city, the two leaders also reached an agreement on jointly implementing an economic project in war-torn Afghanistan — a clear indication of their desire to play a larger role in shaping the regional security scenario.

At separate briefings after the summit, neither foreign secretary Vijay Gokhale nor Chinese vice foreign minister Kong Xuanyou mentioned last year’s Doklam standoff, but it was clear the two leaders favoured strategic restraint along the 3,488-km border and did not want a repeat of the face-off that sent ties plummeting.

Modi and Xi met six times since Friday afternoon, four of which were one-on-one sessions, with officials describing it as a meeting of equals. There were also acknowledgements that the two sides were prepared to deal with differences and each other’s concerns.

The two leaders issued a “strategic guidance to their…militaries to strengthen communication in order to build trust and mutual understanding and enhance predictability and effectiveness in the management of border affairs”, an Indian statement said.

“There is a commitment on both sides to suggest to the two militaries that they need to ensure that existing confidence building measures and existing institutional mechanisms are utilised more effectively,” Gokhale said after the end of the two-day “milestone” summit.

Gokhale’s remarks were echoed by Kong, who told Chinese journalists: “The two countries also agreed to enhance military and security communication mechanisms.” He hinted at the possible setting up of a military hotline.

The implementation and strengthening of existing arrangements and information-sharing mechanisms by the militaries of the two countries will help “prevent and manage incidents in border regions”, the Indian side said.

“The two leaders expressed their support for the work of the Special Representatives on the India-China boundary question and urged them to intensify their efforts to seek a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable settlement,” Gokhale said.
 
The joint project in Afghanistan, the details of which were not immediately available, marks the first coordinated effort by New Delhi and Beijing in the war-ravaged country. It is unlikely to go down well with China’s close ally Pakistan, which has for long called for an end to India’s role in Afghanistan.
The informal nature of the summit meant Modi and Xi were not expected to talk specifics, but it was evident they had reached consensus on not allowing the festering border dispute to hijack ties.
To say the two countries reset their chequered ties over just two days of meetings would be an exaggeration, observers noted. But what the meetings seem to have done is inject a much-needed shot of optimism into bilateral ties.
The focus on enhancing “strategic communication” indicates both India and China are looking at each other as potential partners.
And strengthening such communications will not remain limited to the military. Modi and Xi agreed on the need to “strengthen strategic communication through greater consultation on all matters of common interest”.
Expectedly, the talks involved Xi’s legacy venture, the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), but China appeared to have come to terms with India’s concerns over the mega-connectivity and transit project as it did not try to pressure New Delhi into joining it.
“China does not think it is important whether India accepts China’s Belt and Road infrastructure project and China won’t force it to,” Kong said, while briefing Chinese reporters.
Kong acknowledged that China and India have concrete differences but noted the “summit was not aimed at addressing these specific issues”. He also pointed out that Xi had said the problems between the two sides “are of a limited, temporary nature”.
Kong and Gokhale could well have been speaking in diplomatic tandem when talking about handling the differences.
 
“They [Modi and Xi] agreed that both sides have the maturity and wisdom to handle the differences through peaceful discussion within the context of the overall relationship, bearing in mind the importance of respecting each other’s sensitivities, concerns and aspirations,” Gokhale said.
He said the two leaders also recognised the “common threat posed by terrorism, and reiterated their strong condemnation of and resolute opposition to terrorism in all its forms and manifestations”. Gokhale added: “They committed themselves to cooperate on counter-terrorism.”
According to the Indian statement, Modi and Xi agreed on building an open, multi-polar and participatory global economic order and said peaceful and stable India-China ties will be positive for stability amid global uncertainties.
 
They also believed the informal summit offered an opportunity for free and candid exchanges and agreed on the utility of holding more such dialogues in future.

https://www.hindusta...yrxAEznLgJ.html

 

 


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#33 JasonJ

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 0527 AM

A day's worth of face off scuffle between the two in the same area of Doklam but tensions cool with follow up delegation-level talks.

Spoiler
https://www.indiatod...8214-2019-09-12
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