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V-22 Aew And Asw


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#1 Burncycle360

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 1934 PM

Would there be any advantages to a V-22 based AEW platform over helicopter based AEW systems (Sea King and Merlin) for ships that are too small to operate a fixed wing AEW?

What about as an ASW platform?


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#2 DB

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 2119 PM

For AEW it might allow an altitude advantage.

For ASW, it would be time to get to distant targets. If a ship gets a distant contact, a 250 knot transit would be potentially much more effective than 150 or less.

Edited by DB, 01 August 2019 - 2119 PM.

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#3 Adam_S

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0137 AM

I think there were some mutterings for a while about getting some kind of AEW variant for the QE class carriers, but it quickly got killed by $$$$.


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#4 Corinthian

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0200 AM

V-22 AEW is nice. Allows for longer range. I dunno if you can fit a bigger radar on it vs helo AEWs. I've always found the British solution to CV-borne AEWs to be insufficient.


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#5 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0205 AM

Well Merlin can reach 15000 feet, which seems to be adequate for most circumstances. Ive always thought the Hawkeye was far too much aircraft for a carrier deck. The Skyraider and Gannet AEW's always struck me as far neater solutions, regardless of the undoubted capabilities of the Hawkeye.

 

I think its a case of Merlin or not at all sadly. We just arent going to buy any kind of  V22 without a massive increase in budget.


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#6 urbanoid

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0217 AM

Well Merlin can reach 15000 feet, which seems to be adequate for most circumstances. Ive always thought the Hawkeye was far too much aircraft for a carrier deck. The Skyraider and Gannet AEW's always struck me as far neater solutions, regardless of the undoubted capabilities of the Hawkeye.

 

I think its a case of Merlin or not at all sadly. We just arent going to buy any kind of  V22 without a massive increase in budget.

 

Because your decks were always too small. :P


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#7 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0231 AM

 

Well Merlin can reach 15000 feet, which seems to be adequate for most circumstances. Ive always thought the Hawkeye was far too much aircraft for a carrier deck. The Skyraider and Gannet AEW's always struck me as far neater solutions, regardless of the undoubted capabilities of the Hawkeye.

 

I think its a case of Merlin or not at all sadly. We just arent going to buy any kind of  V22 without a massive increase in budget.

 

Because your decks were always too small. :P

 

 

Well there is that. But I saw not long ago a piece of footage of a Hawkeye landing on a carrier deck, and damn near going into the drink when the trap broke. Thats 5 guys near drawning because a wire broke. Crazy. There must be a lighter solution after all this time, even if its a drone.


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#8 Panzermann

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0328 AM

even if its a drone.

​

 

That is the next step after the tanker drone me thinks.


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#9 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0332 AM

It would make sense I think. And with the F35 as network integrated as it is, then I have to question whether AEW is quite as important as it once was.

 

Even the Tomcat could share radar information with fellow aircraft. When people call it the poor mans Awacs, it really wasnt.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 02 August 2019 - 0333 AM.

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#10 Chris Werb

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 1443 PM

 

even if its a drone.

​

 

That is the next step after the tanker drone me thinks.

 

 

Remember that, with humans on board, the Hawkeye can perform an autonomous control function. A drone would require carrier to keep a datalink on to do the controlling part, thus potentially giving away its position. The datalink could also be jammed or lost.


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#11 Colin

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 1453 PM

Modern Tracker in two modes, a EW version and ASW version. Update the airframe the same way Viking is updating the De Havilland designs.

 

Grumman_S-2F3AT_Turbo_Tracker_%28G-121%2


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#12 BJE

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 1639 PM

 

 

even if its a drone.

​

 

That is the next step after the tanker drone me thinks.

 

 

Remember that, with humans on board, the Hawkeye can perform an autonomous control function. A drone would require carrier to keep a datalink on to do the controlling part, thus potentially giving away its position. The datalink could also be jammed or lost.

 

It's easier to jam voice radio than data, and without communication Hawkeye cannot perform any control function. You have a point about the carrier giving away its position, but I'm not sure if it can avoid detection and still perform air operations... And the benefits of having more controllers than you can fit in a Hawkeye should be might be worth it anyway.


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#13 Daan

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 0629 AM

The current version of the Hawkeye, the E-2D, no longer uses old analogue radios as its sole means of communications. It also has Link 11, 16, MIDS voice, Satcom voice etc.


Edited by Daan, 03 August 2019 - 0634 AM.

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#14 Corinthian

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 0658 AM

 

 

Well Merlin can reach 15000 feet, which seems to be adequate for most circumstances. Ive always thought the Hawkeye was far too much aircraft for a carrier deck. The Skyraider and Gannet AEW's always struck me as far neater solutions, regardless of the undoubted capabilities of the Hawkeye.

 

I think its a case of Merlin or not at all sadly. We just arent going to buy any kind of  V22 without a massive increase in budget.

 

Because your decks were always too small. :P

 

 

Well there is that. But I saw not long ago a piece of footage of a Hawkeye landing on a carrier deck, and damn near going into the drink when the trap broke. Thats 5 guys near drawning because a wire broke. Crazy. There must be a lighter solution after all this time, even if its a drone.

 

 

So... by that logic, the Hawkeye is not a good AEW because it's "too much aircraft," almost went overboard because a wire broke, etc... Ok.

The RN is so screwed if they had that kind of thinking. Preferring to have aircraft that is only adequate. Good luck providing AEW coverage for power projection when the helo can't fly out too far, too fast, and is too light/small an aircraft to carry a bigger, more capable radar with crew and consoles to direct more aircraft in ops.


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#15 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 0703 AM

Look, Im making a resolution not to get into pointless arguments with people I like. Ill just leave this here and allow you all to ask yourself the question how you would like to be an E2 radar operator. Ill leave it at that.

 

 

The RN deserves more credit than it gets. Its pioneered all the major innovations in carrier airpower barring nuclear power. So maybe we should cut them a bit of slack here is all im saying.


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#16 JasonJ

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 0705 AM

Pioneering doesn't count for today.

E-2 is good like many other US military equipment.
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#17 RETAC21

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 0711 AM

 

 

The RN deserves more credit than it gets. Its pioneered all the major innovations in carrier airpower barring nuclear power. So maybe we should cut them a bit of slack here is all im saying.

 

Not really, AEW was "invented" by the Americans, open hangars too, deck layouts and parking, too, the angled deck and the lens system are just components of a wider system.

 

More to the point, why use a large V-22 when a smaller drone will suffice?


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#18 Corinthian

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 0756 AM

Stuart, if accidents such as that were to be a controlling factor, might as well quit naval aviation because accidents can happen, and sell those QEs....

 

Chris raises good points on drones. That said, multiple drones serving something like radar picket destroyers. A fleet can fly a good deal away, all providing data to one or a couple of other drones serving as a node (?) that sends the data to the carrier or some other ship in the battlegroup.


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#19 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 0816 AM

 

 

 

The RN deserves more credit than it gets. Its pioneered all the major innovations in carrier airpower barring nuclear power. So maybe we should cut them a bit of slack here is all im saying.

 

Not really, AEW was "invented" by the Americans, open hangars too, deck layouts and parking, too, the angled deck and the lens system are just components of a wider system.

 

More to the point, why use a large V-22 when a smaller drone will suffice?

 

 

Angled decks, traps, AND the 'ball'. And pioneered the operation of Jets off of aircraft carriers. And the Ski Jump which I notice your own Navy has adopted. These are not trivial achievements.

 

 

Stuart, if accidents such as that were to be a controlling factor, might as well quit naval aviation because accidents can happen, and sell those QEs....

 

Chris raises good points on drones. That said, multiple drones serving something like radar picket destroyers. A fleet can fly a good deal away, all providing data to one or a couple of other drones serving as a node (?) that sends the data to the carrier or some other ship in the battlegroup.

Carrier air is dangerous, quite right. So why make it more dangerous by handling heavy aircraft when AWAC's are going the way of the dodo anyway? Even on land based air there is discussion of removing E3's and using drones and more sensor based systems.

 

Is an AWAC's really needed, when with the F35 they are going to have datalink systems that can mean they designate targets for F18's? Perhaps not.


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#20 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 1033 AM

And not forgetting the steam catapult. :)  Oddly enough, the first landing on a ship at sea took place a few miles from the site of my home (which would not be built for another 20 years). 


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