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Water Dragons Of The Middle Kingdom


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#221 Nobu

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 1227 PM

 

I suspect there will be much political dislocation in China when Xi steps down, or much worse (for the CCP), if he were to die suddenly of natural causes.

 

The PLAN surface ship build up seems directed at local navies. For the US, the effort seems more focused on missiles to engage US surface ships, particularly CVNs, as a deterrent to them getting involved in regional wars. They have a number of exotic high speed projects going in this direction, and at least a few types of super sonic missiles in service.

They don't see to have a particular good answer to USN nuke boats yet outside perhaps flooding the first island chain with ships an accepted the casualties associated with that.

 

I don't think they are planning on takling the US face to face, mainly because they don't need to, but they are certainly worried about their SLOC to their clients which can be cut by their enemies with ease, which explains why they invest so much on escorts and carriers yet they neglect SSNs and ASW. ASBMs can provide the anti-carrier capability required vs the US, but the US can cut the Chinese SLOC and not be near the Pacific Ocean, so it's an interesting capability but irrelevant.

 

 

I don't think so as well, at least not anywhere outside of their force multiplier zones, which is disappointing.


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#222 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0250 AM

China is building a new Amphibious assault ship. All 40000 tons worth.....

https://www.thedrive...ip-is-a-monster


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#223 JasonJ

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0611 AM

China is building a new Amphibious assault ship. All 40000 tons worth.....

https://www.thedrive...ip-is-a-monster

 

Word is that at least 3 are to be made.


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#224 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0629 AM

Thats a hell of a lot of sealift.


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#225 Josh

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0819 AM

Thats still roughly a brigade level force. Compared to anyone but the US its a lot of lift, but compared to land based formations not a huge amount. Amphibious capacity is pricy.
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#226 JasonJ

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 0542 AM

Second Type 75 being build besides the first one.

type75second.jpg


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#227 Nobu

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 1031 AM

Thats still roughly a brigade level force. Compared to anyone but the US its a lot of lift, but compared to land based formations not a huge amount. Amphibious capacity is pricy.

 

If past performance is any indication, a brigade might be enough for the Republic of Chinese to start evacuating their gold reserves.


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#228 JasonJ

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 0734 AM

Thailand to buy PRC Type 71 LPD

thaitype71e.jpg

Spoiler

http://news.dwnews.c...1/60148837.html


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#229 JasonJ

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 0442 AM

 

Another picture of the Type 75.

type75b1.jpg

 

Next picture update

type75c1.jpg

 

 

type75white1.jpg

Two more images in the spoiler

Spoiler

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#230 Nobu

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 1144 AM

Apparently the Republic of Chinese Navy is not operating just one improved Gato-class submarine, but 2. Neither of them are capable of firing torpedoes.

 

Their lack of military utility aside, they may just be the most interesting museum submarines in the world. 


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#231 RETAC21

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 1347 PM

Apparently the Republic of Chinese Navy is not operating just one improved Gato-class submarine, but 2. Neither of them are capable of firing torpedoes.

 

Their lack of military utility aside, they may just be the most interesting museum submarines in the world. 

 

You are quite misinformed. The 2 Guppy II boats are used for training, something they can do perfectly if properly maintained (which they are) and there's no shortage of old training ships of that age, the originality being that they are subs when other countries use simulators for the purpose.

 

Against the PLAN Navy, as reserve combat boats, they are still viable given the lack of ASW capabilities of the continental navy at this point. There are pointers that this will be addressed in the short term but when you need every weapon you have to defend your beaches, these will do.

 

The ROC Navy has 2 70s vintage submarines which have been regularly update and represent the only offensive weapon of the navy.


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#232 Nobu

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 1453 PM

Their viability as reserve combat boats in a 21st Century naval war would be enhanced if the Republic of Chinese were willing purchase the "ability to fire torpedoes" option. They apparently have opted not to.

 

Then again, I could see why, as the torpedoes their 2 improved Gato-class submarines were designed for were the descendants of fish with magnetic trigger issues waiting to happen in various ways.


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#233 JasonJ

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 1758 PM

They are getting MK 48 torpedoes, if not already received.
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#234 RETAC21

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 1116 AM

Their viability as reserve combat boats in a 21st Century naval war would be enhanced if the Republic of Chinese were willing purchase the "ability to fire torpedoes" option. They apparently have opted not to.

 

Then again, I could see why, as the torpedoes their 2 improved Gato-class submarines were designed for were the descendants of fish with magnetic trigger issues waiting to happen in various ways.

 

Again, don't underestimate old hardware, WW2 vintage torpedoes will sink a modern ship just as well as modern ones, if they hit, and a hit is achieved by firing a spread. But Guppy II boats could fire Mk-37 torpedoes that could be wire guided, so the capability has been always been there.


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#235 Nobu

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 1207 PM

Neither of the 2 improved Gato-class submarines in Republic of Chinese Navy service are capable of actually firing torpedoes, which makes it rather difficult to underestimate the potential effectiveness of WW2-era torpedoes launched by them.

 

Their lack of torpedo-firing capability or even a deck gun limits their potential use against slow and vulnerable Chinese merchant shipping as well.


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#236 RETAC21

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Posted Yesterday, 02:57 AM

Neither of the 2 improved Gato-class submarines in Republic of Chinese Navy service are capable of actually firing torpedoes, which makes it rather difficult to underestimate the potential effectiveness of WW2-era torpedoes launched by them.

 

Their lack of torpedo-firing capability or even a deck gun limits their potential use against slow and vulnerable Chinese merchant shipping as well.

 

First, they are not Gato class, one is a Tench, the other a Balao, both updated to Guppy II standard. Second, in 40+ years since transfer, the ROC Navy has had time enough to restore the combat capability of the torpedo tubes (which were just welded shut) and it's more likely than not that they had done so,

 

Edited to add: but on researching a bit, although the boats are in top conditions, it's not clear they are combat capable:

 

https://maritime.org/taiwan/


Edited by RETAC21, Yesterday, 03:01 AM.

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#237 Nobu

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Posted Yesterday, 11:30 AM

One would think that 40 years would be enough time to make them capable of actually firing at an enemy target. That they have not is illustrative in various ways.

Perhaps they can fulfill their reserve combat role for the Republic of Chinese as rams.
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#238 RETAC21

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Posted Yesterday, 12:19 PM

Or like Canadian subs, they are more valuable as training targets for surface forces. Don't forget that Taiwan has other 2 combat submarines.


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#239 Nobu

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Posted Today, 12:13 PM

Possibly, although I would be hesitant to operate vintage submarines dating back to 1944 at anywhere near their diving or maneuvering limits in the course of such training for mean time before failure engineering reasons if anything.

When the time comes for the Republic of Chinese to choose between fight or flight against a possible invasion, these improved Gato-class submarines maintained in perfect operating condition but rendered incapable of actually firing against enemy targets seem optimized for the latter in various ways.

Edited by Nobu, Today, 12:14 PM.

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#240 RETAC21

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Posted Today, 12:30 PM

Possibly, although I would be hesitant to operate vintage submarines dating back to 1944 at anywhere near their diving or maneuvering limits in the course of such training for mean time before failure engineering reasons if anything.

When the time comes for the Republic of Chinese to choose between fight or flight against a possible invasion, these improved Gato-class submarines maintained in perfect operating condition but rendered incapable of actually firing against enemy targets seem optimized for the latter in various ways.

 

Submarine hulls have a limited life, my guess is this boats don't go very deep. US Fleet boats weren't particularly silent or fast, if I had to flee, i'd rather go by plane.


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