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Bavarian Police Adopt Scar-L


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 1545 PM

One would have thought that H&K would have gotten this award:

 

https://www.thefirea...varian-fn-scar/


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#2 BansheeOne

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 0323 AM

The actual remarkable thing here is that judging from the numbers, it seems to be an order for the rank and file. SEKs have acquired non-HK rifles in various German states before; Bavaria itself the AUG, NRW officers were seen with the SCAR during the recent Münster car rampage incident, and some others including Berlin are using the SIG 55x. This seems to be part of the move to introduce rifles for more general police use in response to heavily armed terrorist attacks in France etc. from the last years, succeeding the MP 5 that has been standard patrol car issue so far.


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#3 Panzermann

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 0538 AM

The actual remarkable thing here is that judging from the numbers, it seems to be an order for the rank and file. SEKs have acquired non-HK rifles in various German states before; Bavaria itself the AUG, NRW officers were seen with the SCAR during the recent Münster car rampage incident, and some others including Berlin are using the SIG 55x. This seems to be part of the move to introduce rifles for more general police use in response to heavily armed terrorist attacks in France etc. from the last years, succeeding the MP 5 that has been standard patrol car issue so far.

 

Schleswig-Holstein is putting 522 SIG-Sauer MCX into service: https://strategie-te...g-holstein.html

 

Saxonia has put Haenel CR223 (AR-15/M16-ish rifles made in Thuringia): https://strategie-te...ische.html#more

 

 

 

But for the average patrol car a SCAR-L is too expensive IMHO. More training time on the already in inventory MP5 (and the applicable service pistol) would be money better spent. what use is the best bangstick, if the average policeman cannot hit a barn?


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#4 Chris Werb

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 0704 AM

The problem with 9x19 is danger to bystanders relative to 5.56x45. Obvously that's projectile dependent to a degree, but 5.56 is much safer, on average.


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#5 T-44

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 1143 AM

 
But for the average patrol car a SCAR-L is too expensive IMHO. More training time on the already in inventory MP5 (and the applicable service pistol) would be money better spent. what use is the best bangstick, if the average policeman cannot hit a barn?


Yeah, but it's far easier presenting shiny new toys that only involve the vost if purchase than arranging thorough training regimes (with abundant amlunition avzilable) that would ensure a decent level of competency among the rank and file.

Belgian local and federal police have recently been granted permission to acquire .300 AAC rifles (previously all weapons were limited by law to 9x19, special squirrels aside). Yet what is indeed the use if a normal officer gets only 4/5 range sessions a year (one being a mandatory qualification on a very outdated FBI style circuit). Average ammo expenditure a person during such trainings is 50 rounds btw... but hey, can't afford to buy more ammo / have fewer patrols available can we?
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#6 DB

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 1213 PM

I wonder how well a minimally practised shooter would do against any given target, comparing the two. Obviously neglecting that body armour more or less negates 9x19 anyway.
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#7 Panzermann

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 1251 PM

The problem with 9x19 is danger to bystanders relative to 5.56x45. Obvously that's projectile dependent to a degree, but 5.56 is much safer, on average.

 

The ACTION line from Dynamit Nobel (now RUAG Ammotec) or PEP from MEN has been standard issue for german police forces including the Feldjäger since early 2000s and the projectiles reliably deform.

 

The classic saying of 9 Para, one hit two dead does not apply anymore. FMJ only for using up old stocks in training. (or for war in case of the Feldjäger)


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#8 Panzermann

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 1300 PM

I wonder how well a minimally practised shooter would do against any given target, comparing the two. Obviously neglecting that body armour more or less negates 9x19 anyway.

 

Normal FMJ or any deformation bullet, sure. but there are AP loads, but then those suck at making wounds.

 

 

 

here a leaflet from RUAG ammotec on their LEO/MIL bullets:

https://www.ruag.com...tion_en_low.pdf


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#9 DB

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 1556 PM

Less about the bullet, more about the aiming.


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#10 FALightFighter

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 1359 PM

Less about the bullet, more about the aiming.


Right on! Anybody volunteering to get shot with a .380, or even a .22?

I didn't think so!!!
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#11 Chris Werb

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 1519 PM

 

The problem with 9x19 is danger to bystanders relative to 5.56x45. Obvously that's projectile dependent to a degree, but 5.56 is much safer, on average.

 

The ACTION line from Dynamit Nobel (now RUAG Ammotec) or PEP from MEN has been standard issue for german police forces including the Feldjäger since early 2000s and the projectiles reliably deform.

 

The classic saying of 9 Para, one hit two dead does not apply anymore. FMJ only for using up old stocks in training. (or for war in case of the Feldjäger)

 

 

I'm not sure how these things would stack up against something like Hornady V-Max or its police equivalent (TAP?) in 5.56x45. The latter pretty much completely disintegrates shortly after impact (I've had it blow up on weed stems) whilst both the above hold together, so if they do penetrate (which they will do a lot less than FMJ) they will just keep going.


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#12 Chris Werb

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 1524 PM

Less about the bullet, more about the aiming.

 

 

I recently read an article that claimed that at typical defensive gun use distances an expert was only 10% more accurate with a pistol between three and 15ft. All that extra skill doesn't buy you much more effectiveness in the most likely real world situation. That is not an argument against skill, just how things tend to pan out in reality.


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#13 DB

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 0604 AM

I will try again :)

How much more likely, for any engagement, ignoring factors such as target body armour, is a person, who has minimal training, likely to effectively hit a target when using a rifle compared to using an MP5, if at all.

Yes, it's a broad question. Genetalities in response are expected.

I ask because, in the ridiculously linited experience I have, over 25m I was more accurate with a Sterling on semi than with an SLR. In my case, "minimal" means about 10 rounds total for thise weapons, but maybe 1000 with training rifles in .22lr.
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#14 Simon Tan

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 1029 AM

L1A1 is bigger and harder to manage. Small carbines will always be easier for those with limited training. See M1 Carbine. Also lower recoil, less blast and flash reduce flinch. As for 5.56 being the desired solution for a patrol rifle, it is not if you have a short barrel and ball ammo. A pistol caliber carbine with longer barrel has less blast, less recoil and is as easy to hit with if you zero properly. Overpenetration is not an issue with expanding ammunition and is far less of one than not hitting the target. But no doubt I will be told I know nothing and am talking out my ass.


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#15 DB

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 1057 AM

It's the longest answer to any question you've given in months, of course there is more to criticise.

Thanks for answering

Of note is perhaps that I didn't feel that the SLR was too brutal to be used, even as a callow youth. Didn't get enough shooting to actually be coached, though.
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#16 Chris Werb

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 1136 AM

L1A1 is bigger and harder to manage. Small carbines will always be easier for those with limited training. See M1 Carbine. Also lower recoil, less blast and flash reduce flinch. As for 5.56 being the desired solution for a patrol rifle, it is not if you have a short barrel and ball ammo. A pistol caliber carbine with longer barrel has less blast, less recoil and is as easy to hit with if you zero properly. Overpenetration is not an issue with expanding ammunition and is far less of one than not hitting the target. But no doubt I will be told I know nothing and am talking out my ass.

 

Not talking out of your ass, but overpenetration of a body is not the only issue. Low velocity bullets that hold together will tend to penetrate further through the likes of drywall/sheetrock. Likewise they will bounce on tarmac, walls etc. if they miss. Lightly constructed high velocity rounds, in my experience, blow up on pretty much anything. That makes .17HMR. 22 Hornet and .222 and .223Rem hugely less dangerous to use in the countryside than .22LR (and yes, I've owned and used all five). I'm sure you will agree the trend has been strongly away from 9x19 toward 5.56x45 and analogs in police carbines. There are reasons for that.


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#17 Panzermann

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 1815 PM

L1A1 is bigger and harder to manage. Small carbines will always be easier for those with limited training. See M1 Carbine. Also lower recoil, less blast and flash reduce flinch. As for 5.56 being the desired solution for a patrol rifle, it is not if you have a short barrel and ball ammo. A pistol caliber carbine with longer barrel has less blast, less recoil and is as easy to hit with if you zero properly. Overpenetration is not an issue with expanding ammunition and is far less of one than not hitting the target. But no doubt I will be told I know nothing and am talking out my ass.

 

Much easier to shoot and hit with than the standard issue pistol and uses the same ammunition. In some cases the same magazines even.

 

 

 

The sexy short 556 guns blow your ears out and any bystander's.


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#18 Simon Tan

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 2308 PM

Fashion and ignorant administrators. 9mm ranges are much more common. Training is better than gear. Hits are better than misses. You are not Tier 1. Know your limits.


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#19 T-44

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 0738 AM

For ease of use and getting of hits with minimal training, I still think the P90 is a really well thought out weapon. The ammo however, might not meet all expectations for police use.

But the general size and ergonomics are, IMHO, far better suited for police work than any AR15 pattern or even MP5 or the like subguns. Cause in reality, actual weapon use will be limited, but handcuffing or searching someone with your weapon slung will be frequent (as/or transitions to less lethal force)
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#20 Panzermann

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 0745 AM

Fashion and ignorant administrators. 9mm ranges are much more common. Training is better than gear. Hits are better than misses. You are not Tier 1. Know your limits.

 

For the most part I agree. But when you are in rural Arizona (or Mongolia or...) or something similar empty area, a full size rifle might make sense. And if only for putting down wild animals or runaway cattle. Bavarian police has taken out old G3 from storage and issues deformation bullets for putting down game, cattle, horses etc. for example.

 

 

But for urban police use a pistol caliber carbine/sub-machine gun is the better choice in most cases.

 

 

 

For ease of use and getting of hits with minimal training, I still think the P90 is a really well thought out weapon. The ammo however, might not meet all expectations for police use.

But the general size and ergonomics are, IMHO, far better suited for police work than any AR15 pattern or even MP5 or the like subguns. Cause in reality, actual weapon use will be limited, but handcuffing or searching someone with your weapon slung will be frequent (as/or transitions to less lethal force)

 

The wound ballistics suck with the 5,7 mm bullets. Ammuniiton is also relatively expensive, because of the limited market.

 

And with a modern quickly adjustable two point sling controlling a rifle or subgun are not that much of a problem. And does not take much training getting used to.


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