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#1981 BansheeOne

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 0454 AM

Yup, there have always been lesser tornados here under different names. The American term was popularized by media reports from the US and Hollywood, particularly all the stormchaser movies following "Twister". Anecdotally, their occurrence seems to increase, though that may be a function of the 24/365 newscycle feeding on cellphone video rather than any climate change. They probably don't create much international coverage since even stronger examples don't usually create the dramatic images of mostly-erased settlements due to more robust local construction compared to the American Midwest.

Excuse me but he didn't!

http://www.tank-net....ic=44049&page=1

All he says in the first article is that there is no justification for the victory monument because that tank battle wasn't a Soviet victory. And after that one sentence the monument is only mentioned as a geographical reference point.


Yeah, beautiful example of propaganda by exaggeration. The original "Welt" article is here; the relevant part reads:

Eine goldene Muttergottes thront auf der schneeweißen, seltsam in die Höhe gezogenen Kapelle. Das Denkmal südwestlich des russischen Dorfes Prochorowka, errichtet in der Regierungszeit von Boris Jelzin, erinnert an den Triumph der Roten Armee in der größten Panzerschlacht des Zweiten Weltkrieges genau hier, am 12. Juli 1943.

Für ein Siegesdenkmal gibt es jedoch keinerlei Anlass. Denn neueste Forschungsergebnisse, gestützt auf unzweifelhaft echte Fotos, bestätigen: Bei Prochorowka gab es weder einen sowjetischen Sieg noch überhaupt eine gewaltige Panzerschlacht. In Wirklichkeit fuhren auf dem Acker westlich des heutigen Denkmals mehr als 200 Panzer des sowjetischen 29. Panzerkorps eine Art unfreiwilligen Kamikaze-Angriff.

[...]


Translation mine:

A golden mother of God thrones on top of the snow-white chapel, drawn strangely upwards. The memorial southwest of the Russian village of Prokhorovka, erected during the rule of Boris Yeltsin, commemorates the triumph of the Red Army in the "greatest tank battle of the Second World War", right here, on 12 July 1943.

For a victory memorial there is however no cause at all. Because latest research results, based upon undoubtedly authentic photos, confirm: There was neither a Soviet victory at Prokhorovka nor any huge tank battle to begin with. In reality, more than 200 Soviet tanks drove a kind of involuntary kamikaze attack on the field west of today's memorial.


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#1982 Markus Becker

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 0502 AM

Again, he didn't write what the Russian article says he did.

"By the way Prokhorovka memorial is officially not "victory monument" but "memorial museum Prokhorovka field"."

So one incorrect translation leads to a false allegation that's probably also based on an incorrect translation.

Edited by Markus Becker, 13 July 2019 - 0504 AM.

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#1983 Martin M

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 0517 AM

newspapers :wacko:  Die Welt or whoever . . .    regularly they publish some halfbaked WW2  / Nazi theme

 

just media business

entertainment


Edited by Martin M, 13 July 2019 - 0518 AM.

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#1984 Markus Becker

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 0612 AM

They are usually not widely off the mark and who does history in the MSM anyway?
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#1985 Panzermann

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 0651 AM

They are usually not widely off the mark and who does history in the MSM anyway?

 

ZDF History! :lol:


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#1986 Roman Alymov

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Posted Yesterday, 04:20 PM

Again, he didn't write what the Russian article says he did.


So one incorrect translation leads to a false allegation that's probably also based on an incorrect translation.

Story turned up more complex than just wrong translation. According to version from July 13 (https://web.archive....her-Panzer.html )
" A golden Madonna sits enthroned on the snow-white, strangely raised chapel. The monument southwest of the Russian village of Prokhorovka, built in the reign of Boris Yeltsin, commemorates the triumph of the Red Army in the "World War II Greatest Tank Battle" right here, on July 12, 1943.

For a victory monument, however, there is no reason. The latest research, based on undoubtedly real photos, confirms that Prochorovka had neither a Soviet victory nor a massive tank battle at all. In fact, more than 200 tanks of the Soviet 29th Panzer Corps were driving a kind of involuntary kamikaze attack in the field west of the present monument."

 

  
But earlier version, from July 12, is more tough-worded (https://web.archive....her-Panzer.html )
"A golden Madonna sits enthroned on the snow-white, strangely raised chapel. The monument southwest of the Russian village of Prokhorovka, built in the reign of Boris Yeltsin, commemorates the triumph of the Red Army in the "World War II Greatest Tank Battle" right here, on July 12, 1943.

Actually, this monument would have to be demolished immediately. The latest research, based on undoubtedly real photos, confirms that Prochorovka had neither a Soviet victory nor a massive tank battle at all. In reality, more than 200 tanks of the Soviet 29th Panzer Corps were driving a kind of involuntary kamikaze attack in the field west of the present monument."
As we see, article text was corrected to be, let's say, less provocative...


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#1987 Markus Becker

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Posted Yesterday, 06:21 PM

Point taken and fully supported!

The article actually dates from the 9th and they changed it without mentioning that they did. Bloody unprofessional by Anglo American standards but thats the German media for you.

It's annoying as fuck and the only way to tell is from the comments. Someone complains about something someone else says isn't there(any more).
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#1988 Panzermann

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Posted Today, 04:14 AM

Point taken and fully supported!

The article actually dates from the 9th and they changed it without mentioning that they did. Bloody unprofessional by Anglo American standards but thats the German media for you.

It's annoying as fuck and the only way to tell is from the comments. Someone complains about something someone else says isn't there(any more).

 

Often you can find both versions on archive.org. But it is dishonest to silently edit an article.


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#1989 BansheeOne

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Posted Today, 07:25 AM

Actually, once an article has gotten into the mills of propaganda I wouldn't necessarily trust screenshots of supposed original versions either; they might be altered, too. I was going to say I need to look whether the piece appeared in print and what it said, but the note about the comments is a good point and indicates that the contentious phrase was indeed changed without notice in reaction to the criticism. Which I agree is annoying.

I see "Spiegel Online" change headlines of articles all the time, but at least they note editorial changes properly and don't alter opionating lines like this one even if they become an embarrassment (or at least I've never noticed). That kind of professionalism is one of the few reasons I keep going there, though I find myself reading less and less of the articles - even by my broad standards for news sources of different political bias, they have been going down a cliff of political correctness for the last two years after a previous spell of more balanced reporting.
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#1990 sunday

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Posted Today, 09:38 AM

Actually, once an article has gotten into the mills of propaganda I wouldn't necessarily trust screenshots of supposed original versions either; they might be altered, too. I was going to say I need to look whether the piece appeared in print and what it said, but the note about the comments is a good point and indicates that the contentious phrase was indeed changed without notice in reaction to the criticism. Which I agree is annoying.

I see "Spiegel Online" change headlines of articles all the time, but at least they note editorial changes properly and don't alter opionating lines like this one even if they become an embarrassment (or at least I've never noticed). That kind of professionalism is one of the few reasons I keep going there, though I find myself reading less and less of the articles - even by my broad standards for news sources of different political bias, they have been going down a cliff of political correctness for the last two years after a previous spell of more balanced reporting.

 

Axel, on Spiegel, Were you around here when the Relotius scandal exploded?


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#1991 Martin M

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Posted Today, 12:34 PM

Relotius was forgotten a day later and no one now is enlightened by the case, all is as it ever was.

 

... and as I said he isn´t the only one and it isn´t the only case and if there is one case developed to a scandal (even a short one) then  it´s kinda logical that it goes on all the time


Edited by Martin M, Today, 12:35 PM.

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#1992 BansheeOne

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Posted Today, 01:12 PM

Axel, on Spiegel, Were you around here when the Relotius scandal exploded?

 

Sure, it's just a dozen pages upstream on this thread. Which reminds me that the committee report on the case, possible systemic problems enabling it and recommendations for improvements commissioned by the "Spiegel" itself has been out for some time, though obviously in German. I've wanted to translate some parts I found particularly interesting and post them up, particularly how the Society department Relotius was working for was a world of itself within the magazine - it was transplanted complete after the spin-off "Spiegel Reporter" failed economically in 2001, with its own fact-checkers, layouters and all, and seems to have had an elitist self-image, isolating itself from the rest of the staff.

 

Another point was the general weakness of the Reportage style, which constructs an interesting story arc to draw the reader in, against manipulated arrangement; not just in pursuit of a particular political agenda, but also because stories tend to be rewarded by journalism prices the more they read like a novel - something that was noted early on after the case broke. The report notes how the story which caused Relotius' downfall was developed to an unusual degree in advance in e-mails between Relotius, his superior Matthias Geyer and Juan Moreno, who later uncovered the fabrications. I'm gonna translate at least this, since I haven't found the time and nerve to do more so far:

 

We are looking for a woman with child. She will ideally come from an absolutely fucked-up country (...) She is putting her hope into a new, free good life in the US (...) It has to be one who wants to cross the border with the help of a coyote (...) The figure for the second conflict will be described by Claas (...) This guy will obviously have voted for Trump, did already run hot when Trump announced to build the wall on the border, and now looks forward for the people in this treck like Obelix looks forward to the arrival of a new legion of Romans (...) If you find the right people, this will be the story of the year.

 

The report recommends various organizational changes to prevent future fabrications of this kind. As far as attitude goes, I'm however seeing no application of lessons learned in the output of "Spiegel" - same political expectation-serving, same generalization of bad apples for whole organizations if they are readily disliked (like right-wing tendencies among police officers etc.), despite the textbook example of a bad apple in their own ranks.

 

Which contributes to the negative development I noted above. I'm not known for Trump fandom, but articles about him are among those I tend to avoid reading lately; I don't need the n-th report of his latest minor brainfart by guys who have reported from the US as long I've gone to the website, and seem to have gone native with the political polarization there that turns any misstep by an opponent into another sign for the impending end of the republic. But it seems to sell.

 

Apropos of journalism prices: Juan Moreno got one for uncovering the case, against considerable in-house resistance and risk to his job, shortly after the above report was published. Once in a while, somebody remembers what journalism is supposed to be about.


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#1993 sunday

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Posted Today, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the information, the translation*, your take in some foreign correspondents, and the news of the prize for Moreno.

 

*Usually google translate from German to English is good enough to need only minor editing, but I am not so sure about nuances.


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