Jump to content


Photo

Security Of Taiwan And Senkaku Islands


  • Please log in to reply
85 replies to this topic

#41 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0333 AM

Japan could go anti-US if they find the DPRK a role model for a
society.

Japan has been an extrordinarily kind country, being slandered by sissy media things like comfort women and such.

Imagine if they picked up the same attitude as Russia.. the kind of hell they could come off with. Russia is a loser role model country. If Japan as it is now had the same territory and resources as Russia, GDP would exceed 10 trillion USD. GJ Putin in ruining that country [/sarc]
  • 0

#42 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 55,656 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0400 AM

One has to note the obvious point, that if Crimea is, despite all agreements in the past, a part of Russia, then Russia has, by the same token, to accept the Kurlies are also part of Japan.

 

Russia cant have it both ways here. Its either the demolisher of past agreement's, or it isn't. They aren't the sole participant that can pick and choose here.


  • 0

#43 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,561 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0402 AM

Japan has been an extrordinarily kind country, being slandered by sissy media things like comfort women and such.

Imagine if they picked up the same attitude as Russia.. the kind of hell they could come off with. Russia is a loser role model country. If Japan as it is now had the same territory and resources as Russia, GDP would exceed 10 trillion USD. GJ Putin in ruining that country [/sarc]

With all my respect, let me remind you that "Japan as it is now" is result of Japan Empire starting and loosing war against next to all neighbors, close and distant (like US). It is not in Japan interests to complain about not having "same territory and resources as Russia" as once it had already, and we know how it ended.
cebb2a84fe94b55064ddcccdb72059f7--maps-h

 

And about " extraordinarily kind" - i think one day Chinese and Korean users may find it worth commenting on. Luckily for Japan, Soviet (and now Russian) officials were not promoting information about "extraordinary kindness" of Japanese troops in Sakhalin and other places  where Russian population was unlucky to contact them - preferring to focus on cruelty of US bombings of Japan instead.


  • 0

#44 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0407 AM

Yeah the history 80 years ago is the only argument the chicoms can scrape out of the bottom of the barrel too. 80 years ago. Japan has accepted defeat and since then has been an extrordinarily kind country. Undo that and the Russian fleet will sink again.
  • 0

#45 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0409 AM

One has to note the obvious point, that if Crimea is, despite all agreements in the past, a part of Russia, then Russia has, by the same token, to accept the Kurlies are also part of Japan.
 
Russia cant have it both ways here. Its either the demolisher of past agreement's, or it isn't. They aren't the sole participant that can pick and choose here.


They think they can choose since they are selective with logic on any given second. Thus illogical. Too much macho-man Putin twisted their rational. Russia Stronk! When China allows it!
  • 0

#46 urbanoid

urbanoid

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,412 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0416 AM

 

You're delusional.

 

 

I'd have thought the opposite was true. But you do disapprove.

 

 

By believing in playing Russia against China you're just as delusional as many Western 'experts' who believe the same. Those may be the rogue states, but their leaders aren't dumb. They have no other way than to hang together, or else they will hang separately.

 

 

 

 

I will say that Abe was hopeful of using a person-to-person approach with Putin to derail progress toward policy convergence between Moscow and Beijing, and to essentially use Russia as leverage against China for the benefit of Japan's national interest.

 

The reaching of an understanding between Abe and Putin on Japanese sovereignty over the Northern Territories would have helped this effort considerably.

 

The best time for the achievement of both of these goals was when Russia was at its most isolated after its Crimea operation, and when Abe broke with Washington to hold the door open for Russia in the face of repercussions.

 

Washington's anger at this independent policy decision made by the MFA for the benefit of the Japanese national interest was palpable in various ways.

You're delusional.

 

 

He's not alone. The idea has been pushed around here. Well I think it is a general shortcoming of some Japanese to underestimate the security risks of Russia. But I think it goes very much the same way how many in Europe underestimate the security risks with China. So both sides just being more fixated with whats in their own neighborhood.

 

 

Well, in Europe we have quite a lot of those who underestimate the security risks of Russia, which is at our doorstep, so expecting them to understand the Chinese problem...


  • 0

#47 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0418 AM

You're delusional.
 
I'd have thought the opposite was true. But you do disapprove.
 
By believing in playing Russia against China you're just as delusional as many Western 'experts' who believe the same. Those may be the rogue states, but their leaders aren't dumb. They have no other way than to hang together, or else they will hang separately.
 
 

I will say that Abe was hopeful of using a person-to-person approach with Putin to derail progress toward policy convergence between Moscow and Beijing, and to essentially use Russia as leverage against China for the benefit of Japan's national interest.
 
The reaching of an understanding between Abe and Putin on Japanese sovereignty over the Northern Territories would have helped this effort considerably.
 
The best time for the achievement of both of these goals was when Russia was at its most isolated after its Crimea operation, and when Abe broke with Washington to hold the door open for Russia in the face of repercussions.
 
Washington's anger at this independent policy decision made by the MFA for the benefit of the Japanese national interest was palpable in various ways.

You're delusional.
 
He's not alone. The idea has been pushed around here. Well I think it is a general shortcoming of some Japanese to underestimate the security risks of Russia. But I think it goes very much the same way how many in Europe underestimate the security risks with China. So both sides just being more fixated with whats in their own neighborhood.
 
Well, in Europe we have quite a lot of those who underestimate the security risks of Russia, which is at our doorstep, so expecting them to understand the Chinese problem...

Quite true good point.
  • 0

#48 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,561 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0458 AM

Yeah the history 80 years ago is the only argument the chicoms can scrape out of the bottom of the barrel too. 80 years ago. Japan has accepted defeat and since then has been an extrordinarily kind country. Undo that and the Russian fleet will sink again.

What about US fleet sink again, UK fleet sink again and recreating other glorious victories that happened in years between Russian fleet sink and nuclear mushrooms over Japan 40 years later? It is hardly reasonable position for Japan to remind others about this part of history (especially when nation most affected by this great victories is now 1.3 bln country with world's second, if not first, economy )


  • 0

#49 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0506 AM

 

Yeah the history 80 years ago is the only argument the chicoms can scrape out of the bottom of the barrel too. 80 years ago. Japan has accepted defeat and since then has been an extrordinarily kind country. Undo that and the Russian fleet will sink again.

What about US fleet sink again, UK fleet sink again and recreating other glorious victories that happened in years between Russian fleet sink and nuclear mushrooms over Japan 40 years later? It is hardly reasonable position for Japan to remind others about this part of history (especially when nation most affected by this great victories is now 1.3 bln country with world's second, if not first, economy )

 

 

How about... what about not goal post shifting? Are you already that desparate to find an escape and come out ahead by coming out in impression points?

 

The post you made here in order to prop up another post made an argument that is for the most part already debunked by an earlier post that I made here. Additionally, that post you made is also by questioning why it was said in public as if it was some huge big ordeal. How about sending poison to someone in a perfume bottle in a different country as opposed to typical Kabuki? So much for Russia Stronk! if to be so vulnerable to the Japanese PM suggesting that the Russian people can continue to live on the islands and work side by side with Japanese people. As part of resolving the territorial issue, I find that proposition rather positive. It doesn't mean it has to be liked, Russia can of course decline and remain firm on giving back only the two smaller islands. It is so obviously Russia turning this into a big deal in Russia, if it is indeed the big deal that you claim it to be.


Edited by JasonJ, 16 January 2019 - 0509 AM.

  • 0

#50 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,561 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0522 AM

 

 

 

How about... what about not goal post shifting? Are you already that desparate to find an escape and come out ahead by coming out in impression points?

I'm just reminding you about consequences of playing this games in past. I do not think it is any need to replay history.

I'm afraid you are overestimating the importance of our chats here :)

 

 

 

 

if to be so vulnerable to the Japanese PM suggesting that the Russian people can continue to live on the islands and work side by side with Japanese people. As part of resolving the territorial issue, I find that proposition rather positive. It doesn't mean it has to be liked, Russia can of course decline and remain firm on giving back only the two smaller islands. It is so obviously Russia turning this into a big deal in Russia, if it is indeed the big deal that you claim it to be.

If your political decision makers are thinking this way  -it is indication of their experts on Russian affairs incompetent (or political leaders not consulting with experts). Of course, we can't rule out their aim was not agreement but derailing talks....


  • 0

#51 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 55,656 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0524 AM

Russia will never willingly give up the Kuriles. It will posture over it because its useful to do so. But you only have to look at a map, the potential of those islands being used for ASW forces or some form of GIUK line would effectively leave Russian forces bottled up in a war. Its also going to hobble the utility of SSBN's parked in the pacific fleet.

 

Id like to believe otherwise, but under Putin, all you will have is your nose tweaked. He will never give anything without getting more in return, he has proved this time and again.


  • 0

#52 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0529 AM

 

 

 

 

How about... what about not goal post shifting? Are you already that desparate to find an escape and come out ahead by coming out in impression points?

 

I'm just reminding you about consequences of playing this games in past. I do not think it is any need to replay history.

I'm afraid you are overestimating the importance of our chats here :)

 

 

 

 

if to be so vulnerable to the Japanese PM suggesting that the Russian people can continue to live on the islands and work side by side with Japanese people. As part of resolving the territorial issue, I find that proposition rather positive. It doesn't mean it has to be liked, Russia can of course decline and remain firm on giving back only the two smaller islands. It is so obviously Russia turning this into a big deal in Russia, if it is indeed the big deal that you claim it to be.

 

If your political decision makers are thinking this way  -it is indication of their experts on Russian affairs incompetent (or political leaders not consulting with experts). Of course, we can't rule out their aim was not agreement but derailing talks....

 

 

Yeah sure, always playing it cool, similar approach you took to Damian. He made comments really harsh level comments but by provocation due to you playing it cool and using smiley faces in an inappropriate matter. Also Damian was still in his mid-20s so a bone could be given to him.

 

When at all possible, I avoid chats with you.

 

Well if you say so yeah [/sarc] Any failure in progress with Russia are plus points for the Balitcs, Poland, the Ukraine, the UK, etc.

 

As long as the Putin team keeps enjoying a nominal GDP that is the same size as ROK's [/sarc] :closedeyes:


Edited by JasonJ, 16 January 2019 - 0530 AM.

  • 0

#53 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0534 AM

Russia will never willingly give up the Kuriles. It will posture over it because its useful to do so. But you only have to look at a map, the potential of those islands being used for ASW forces or some form of GIUK line would effectively leave Russian forces bottled up in a war. Its also going to hobble the utility of SSBN's parked in the pacific fleet.

 

Id like to believe otherwise, but under Putin, all you will have is your nose tweaked. He will never give anything without getting more in return, he has proved this time and again.

 

So what if they never do. Japanese position is the Japanese position. A position will be taken regardless of Putin. If he doesn'6t like that then tough luck for him. We're only talking about a max of 4 of the southern ones. His loss to keep Russia economically pinned. Roscomos has already taken a big hit, to the detriment to the population. More rigged elections for the Putin team!


  • 0

#54 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,151 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0537 AM

Japan as benevolent neighbour is still trying to live down the Greater Asian CoProsperity Sphere. Japan cannot set a course independent of the US with the PRC at its door. Japan is the ideal bogeyman for China and the worst ally Taiwan could hope for.
I still dont see what the Russians can be offered for the South Kuriles. The sane applies to all territories that Japan is disputing. Indeed with Korean rappochment, things are going to get worse for Tokyo.
  • 0

#55 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,561 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0538 AM

 

Id like to believe otherwise, but under Putin, all you will have is your nose tweaked. He will never give anything without getting more in return, he has proved this time and again.

Isn't it what any political leader is supposed to deliver to his country when it comes to international relations business? What is the sense of the deal, if it is not bringing " more in return"?


  • 0

#56 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,151 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0541 AM

Please consider the epic cock up that is Brexit and you can understand the angst and envy.
  • 0

#57 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,561 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0542 AM

 

So what if they never do. Japanese position is the Japanese position. A position will be taken regardless of Putin. If he doesn'6t like that then tough luck for him. We're only talking about a max of 4 of the southern ones. His loss to keep Russia economically pinned. Roscomos has already taken a big hit, to the detriment to the population. More rigged elections for the Putin team!

 

I'm sorry  - what is Roscomos? May be you mean RoscoSmos?


  • 0

#58 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0543 AM

Japan as benevolent neighbour is still trying to live down the Greater Asian CoProsperity Sphere. Japan cannot set a course independent of the US with the PRC at its door. Japan is the ideal bogeyman for China and the worst ally Taiwan could hope for.
I still dont see what the Russians can be offered for the South Kuriles. The sane applies to all territories that Japan is disputing. Indeed with Korean rappochment, things are going to get worse for Tokyo.

 

Yeah, CPTPP, or before that business and such still. International competition still will exists. The only way to satisfy those kinds of arguments is to be a loser or be a communists where everyone gets a fair piece regardless of quantity and quality of work put in. But even with that said, ASEAN in general seems quite comfortable with Japan. Definitely more so than China. If Japan is the worse kind of ally for Taiwan, better move to Taiwan and start campaigning there on the behalf of the CCP. What Russia gets for finding a settlement with Japan is obvious for those that aren't stuck to Russian style aggression.


Edited by JasonJ, 16 January 2019 - 0545 AM.

  • 0

#59 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,283 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0544 AM

 

 

So what if they never do. Japanese position is the Japanese position. A position will be taken regardless of Putin. If he doesn'6t like that then tough luck for him. We're only talking about a max of 4 of the southern ones. His loss to keep Russia economically pinned. Roscomos has already taken a big hit, to the detriment to the population. More rigged elections for the Putin team!

 

I'm sorry  - what is Roscomos? May be you mean RoscoSmos?

 

 

It's a typo.


  • 0

#60 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,561 posts

Posted 16 January 2019 - 0600 AM

 

 

 

It's a typo.

 

So what is wrong with Roscosmos, except effects post-Soviet collapse and mismanagement of incompetent people like Rogozin&Co?


  • 0