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Protests In Hong Kong


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#1 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0318 AM

Not seen this anywhere else here. From what Im seeing on CNN this morning, its starting to get quite hairy.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001

 

Thousands of protesters and police in Hong Kong are engaged in a stand-off as anger grows over a bill which would allow extradition to mainland China.

Early on Wednesday protesters, some wearing face masks and helmets, blocked key roads around government buildings.

Police in riot gear responded by using pepper spray on protesters to disperse them and said they were prepared to use force.

 

The Legislative Council (LegCo) has now delayed the second reading of the bill.

 

The pro-Beijing LegCo said Wednesday's scheduled meeting would instead be held at an unspecified "later time".

Despite the opposition the government is continuing to push for the extradition bill and it is expected to pass its final vote on 20 June.

 

What's happening today?

Thousands of protesters - mostly young people and students - took to the streets and attempted to block access to government buildings ahead of the scheduled debate of the bill.

 

"This behaviour has gone beyond the scope of peaceful gatherings," the Hong Kong Police Force said in a tweet on Wednesday.

"We call on [protesters] to leave as soon as possible... otherwise we will use appropriate force.

Matthew Cheung, Hong Kong's administration chief, has urged protesters to stop occupying major roads and disperse as soon as possible, the Sing Tao Daily reports.

But one young protester, decked in a black mask and gloves, told news site AFP that they would not "leave [until] they scrap the law".

Political party the Hong Kong National Front has threatened to enter the Legislative Council and remain "indefinitely" on strike if the government does not withdraw the bill.

   

Critics of the bill of amendments to the extradition laws cite the alleged use of torture, arbitrary detentions and forced confessions in the Chinese judicial system.

The government has promised legally binding human rights safeguards and other measures it says should alleviate concerns.

Nevertheless, this has led to the largest rallies the territory has seen since it was handed back to China by the British in 1997.

Police said they are also investigating death threats made against Hong Kong's Chief Executive, Carrie Lam, and members of the justice department over the bill.

 

 

 

At the moment they are using tear gas on unarmed protesters. I guess we should be thankful they have refrained from T69's this time.

 

 


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#2 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0335 AM

Yeah, someboday started it here:
http://www.tank-net....42830&p=1431712
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#3 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0351 AM

Ok fair enough, I missed that one.

 

Im finding it disturbing though how our values have been eroded. In 1989 the international community shit a brick over Tianamen square. Now it looks like Hong Kong might go the same way, and nobody really seems interested.  In particular the British Government which, it being a former Colony, you would have thought we would have some latent interest. Nothing. All we are worried about is whether signing up to Huawei is going to upset Donald Trump or not.


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#4 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0410 AM

Ok fair enough, I missed that one.

 

Im finding it disturbing though how our values have been eroded. In 1989 the international community shit a brick over Tianamen square. Now it looks like Hong Kong might go the same way, and nobody really seems interested.  In particular the British Government which, it being a former Colony, you would have thought we would have some latent interest. Nothing. All we are worried about is whether signing up to Huawei is going to upset Donald Trump or not.

 

Yeah, I don't know how to explain it. I suppose those values are not one of priceless things that can't be purchased with a Mastercard but are among the "everything else". Purchased with Mao faced currency bills.


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#5 Murph

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0612 AM

How long before they send in the tanks?  Hong Kong is a warning as to what the Left is planning for us.


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#6 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0619 AM

How long before they send in the tanks?  Hong Kong is a warning as to what the Left is planning for us.

 

Biden was at it again but a little less obvious than his previous tongue tripping. "Our workers are three times more productive than theirs in the Far East, I mean I mean, in Asia, so what are we worried about"


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#7 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0648 AM

Can we please stop channeling this through US Politics though? Personally im wholly bored by the Trump Vs Anyone Else narrative.

 

Now they are using rubber bullets.

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001


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#8 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0713 AM

The one good thing is that the extradition bill got postponed. But to when was not announced. So it is to be seen when the legislature will try to pass the bill again soon or later. Here's an old post with reference info on the HK 2016 legislature election. It is worth considering how pro-Beijing people in HK and Beijing itself has shown using time against demonstrators in the 2014 umbrella mass demonstrations, draggin that process out to nearly 4 months long. People have limited toleration when it comes to the long term. Over a period of months, some people start getting irritated and frustrated with demonstrations disrupting everyday living, and then CCP  or other Pro-Beijing media then start to use that as painting the demonstrators as ill-guided, anti-Chinese, uncivilized, and so on.

 

Some footage of the protests groups being broken up.

 


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#9 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0722 AM

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.


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#10 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0732 AM

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

 

To that they often change gears to the "might makes right" as history has shown so it is necessary, plus the "it's Chinese sovereign territory so internal issue so butt out". And that "sovereign territory" argument goes to Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan and the South China Sea as well. My way or the high way is the attitude. To then sometimes a counter comparison of PRC military to the US so as to make a point that PRC can't do it but to which PRC posters respond with US is leaving the Pacific, they all talk no show, etc.

 

Only to then on the next day they say PRC is fair and prosperous and that democracy is messy and unordered and smear the west with examples of Paris or DC demonstrations.

 

In other words, they literally say whatever drags out the argument, reality is twisted, they keep pressing argument points. To break just one takes dozens of long drawn out engagements to the point that eventually they feel stupid.

 

So really, it is not about learning, it is about Pro-CCP, Pro-CCP, Pro-PRC, Pro-PRC. If what is to be learned is contrary to what the CCP says, then it is wrong and troll it to be wrong. And they reinforce each other to literally make freedom of speech work towards their end just by sheer volume and overloading contrary views.


Edited by JasonJ, 12 June 2019 - 0734 AM.

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#11 DKTanker

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0743 AM

Can we please stop channeling this through US Politics though? Personally im wholly bored by the Trump Vs Anyone Else narrative.

 

Now they are using rubber bullets.

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001

Huh?  The only one that brought up Trump, is you.  Perhaps you might brush up on US politics if you're going to whine about it, that YouTube video features Joe Biden.  See, it's right there in the screenshot of the video.


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#12 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0756 AM

 

Can we please stop channeling this through US Politics though? Personally im wholly bored by the Trump Vs Anyone Else narrative.

 

Now they are using rubber bullets.

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001

Huh?  The only one that brought up Trump, is you.  Perhaps you might brush up on US politics if you're going to whine about it, that YouTube video features Joe Biden.  See, it's right there in the screenshot of the video.

 

 

Oh for Gods sake, just stop already. Not EVERY problem begins and ends inside the Washington Beltway.


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#13 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0805 AM

In one way that it is related is that Hong Kong demonstrations are stronger or weaker depending on how the international world handles it. If POTUS (or would be) wants to talk about PRC not being bad guys, and thus consequently cutting away the standing foundation for any lengthy arguments about CCP government control, censorship, pre-approving candidates for HK, and so on, in the US, then that would dampen any international support from the US, exactly what the CCP wants. The US is big and has a lot of influence at play but won't come around if it isn't part of the discussion or thinking.

 

As an addition, sometimes I do wish there was more activity in the international related topics by the US contingent but sometimes it seems fine to just let them deal with the domestic stuff, I certainly don't have the time to go into the whole Mueller thing myself or whatever is the domestic political tool for verbal attacks of the day so is a good thing that some people do have the time for that.


Edited by JasonJ, 12 June 2019 - 0807 AM.

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#14 sunday

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0805 AM

Please remind this next time someone puts forward the argument about not returning Gibraltar to Spain because of the desires of the residents of the rock.

 

I know part of the territories of HK were leased until 1997, but some had a perpetual lease.


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#15 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0823 AM

Please remind this next time someone puts forward the argument about not returning Gibraltar to Spain because of the desires of the residents of the rock.

 

I know part of the territories of HK were leased until 1997, but some had a perpetual lease.

 

What  has that to do with anything? It was Spains choice not to lease Gibraltar. It was China's choice to lease Hong Kong. There is no similarity whatsoever, not least because the GDP is probably several thousand times what Gibraltars will ever be. Lets also further overlook that Britain is an (increasingly addled admittedly) home of Democracy, and the PRC are a bunch of Communist Thugs wholly absent of any Democratic principles. Im sure there are many other difference but that will do for starters.

 

You know what frustrates me about this site, is intelligent people take wholly dissimilar arguments and  roughly conflating them and saying that 'proves' their own personal hobby horse. Why not look at things at the facts, which is the PRC is crushing one more (increasingly limited) Democratic outpost, and nobody, absolutely nobody, is living a finger in criticism? Compare and contrast to Hungary and Czechoslovakia and say this shouldnt bother us? Please, stop obscuring the facts with whataboutism.

 

Jesus, why do I even bother?


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#16 sunday

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0848 AM

 

Please remind this next time someone puts forward the argument about not returning Gibraltar to Spain because of the desires of the residents of the rock.

 

I know part of the territories of HK were leased until 1997, but some had a perpetual lease.

 

What  has that to do with anything? It was Spains choice not to lease Gibraltar. It was China's choice to lease Hong Kong. There is no similarity whatsoever, not least because the GDP is probably several thousand times what Gibraltars will ever be. Lets also further overlook that Britain is an (increasingly addled admittedly) home of Democracy, and the PRC are a bunch of Communist Thugs wholly absent of any Democratic principles. Im sure there are many other difference but that will do for starters.

 

You know what frustrates me about this site, is intelligent people take wholly dissimilar arguments and  roughly conflating them and saying that 'proves' their own personal hobby horse. Why not look at things at the facts, which is the PRC is crushing one more (increasingly limited) Democratic outpost, and nobody, absolutely nobody, is living a finger in criticism? Compare and contrast to Hungary and Czechoslovakia and say this shouldnt bother us? Please, stop obscuring the facts with whataboutism.

 

Jesus, why do I even bother?

 

 

I agree with you in decrying China riding over HK democracy, but you forgot that most of HK was leased in perpetuity, so part of HK could still be British. Perhaps HK would have been uneconomical for HM Treasury, but England could have presented herself as a champion of Ethics.

This proves that the desires of the Gib inhabitants is only an excuse HM Govt uses in order to keep the last colony in Europe. Unless Spain, even Franco's Spain, looks like a worse country than China a few years after Tian An Men.

 

So, yes, this has relevance in the Gibraltar question, IMHO.


Edited by sunday, 12 June 2019 - 0849 AM.

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#17 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0855 AM

Well I cant see it, but I have the flu at the moment, so perhaps my cognitive functions are already clogged up.

 

Talk on the news of a million person protest. Which is pretty good even in massively populated China.


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#18 sunday

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0857 AM

Get well, Stuart.


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#19 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0914 AM

Some footage of some of the more violent scenes, not quite at the bloody level, but violant nonetheless.

 

First one was on Monday.

 

Second is today at the a legislature building.


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#20 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0925 AM

Two Globaltimes (basically CCP mouth) articles both dated June 12th.

 

"Foreign powers at blame for violence and scale."

Spoiler

http://www.globaltim...t/1153926.shtml

 

 

"Mainland China cares more about HK than any foreign power" (which obviously is playing down the contents of the extradition bill)

Spoiler
http://www.globaltim...t/1153968.shtml
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