Jump to content


Photo

Protests In Hong Kong


  • Please log in to reply
244 replies to this topic

#61 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:doko yarou
  • Interests:sleeping

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0645 AM

One good thing that the Clinton administration did do was send US carriers next to Taiwan when Taiwan was having their first presidential election and so all the PRC did was launch a bunch or rockets into the sea. But yeah, the rest...


  • 0

#62 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0705 AM

 

Well we are all trading with them, so we must all like and support them on some level.

 

You can only blame Bill Clinton so far. You cant blame him for the continued appeasement across the west as the PRC inexorably eases across the line of civilized behavior with nothing so much as a wagged finger. When the Soviets did it, we had Charter 77. What have we got now? Nothing.

 

This was on the BBC the other day, describes what China has been doing to its largely forgotten Muslim population. Muslims today, Hong Kong next week I suppose.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...na_hidden_camps

 

Yes, the Clintons were up to their eyeballs in ChiCom money, technology transfer and appeasement and every president until the current one let them get away with murder on trade and IP theft, but they didn't leave HK to it's fate, that was another country. You can argue that there was no choice or there was an agreement or whatever but everyone knew where it would end up eventually.

 

 

Alright, here is my alternative history novel. Call it the Bum of All Fears for want of a better title.

 

Its 1996. Prime Minister John Major, increasingly popular with the British Public due to his virile and decisive nature, decides to hold onto Hong Kong. He call's up the Chinese Premier. he tells him to fuck off. He then sails the immense British fleet into the South China Sea, and backed by the increasingly assertive President Bill Clinton, keen to prove his anticommunist credentials, they defeat the Chinese Navy in a vast fleet on fleet action with zero casualties. Millions of PRC chinese drown. Hong Kong is saved, liberty breaks out in China, its party time on the Pacific Rim.

 

Erm, no. We could not have held onto Hong Kong in any circumstances. About the best we could do is give it independence, and as Taiwan proved, Independence from the PRC is a chancy thing. And they had a good Army, Navy and Air Force. Hong Kong had a good police force, and that was about it. Oh, and a good tram service apparently.

 

 

The history leaves us where we are. We can wag fingers at each other about who has betrayed Hong Kong more, but its irrelevant. Now matters, not then. Then is unfixable. Now isnt, if we apply ourselves.

 

But we dont. We would rather buy cheap rubber dogshit, and screw the civil rights. An attitude that in the long term will do much more to fuck us than them. Watch this space.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 18 June 2019 - 0708 AM.

  • 0

#63 DKTanker

DKTanker

    1strdhit

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,493 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0740 AM

 

Erm, no. We could not have held onto Hong Kong in any circumstances. About the best we could do is give it independence, and as Taiwan proved, Independence from the PRC is a chancy thing. And they had a good Army, Navy and Air Force. Hong Kong had a good police force, and that was about it. Oh, and a good tram service apparently.

 

Do you really think China would have risked war over HK?  Even they had to recognize the lethality of the British Minesweeping fleet.


  • 0

#64 rmgill

rmgill

    Strap-hanger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,727 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:33.8369/-84.2675
  • Interests:WWII Armor, Ferrets, Dingos, Humbers, etc...

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0746 AM

Mine _hunting_ fleet.  ;) 
 


  • 0

#65 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0752 AM

At least we dont pretend Frigates are mine clearance assets. Thats the naval equivalent of bomb disposal with hobnail boots. :rolleyes:


  • 0

#66 rmgill

rmgill

    Strap-hanger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,727 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:33.8369/-84.2675
  • Interests:WWII Armor, Ferrets, Dingos, Humbers, etc...

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0756 AM

Well, go look at any number of ships, used to be they had Paravanes on things up to battleship size for mine clearance. 
 

Mind you the whole LCS thing is an example of the whole fitted for but not with nonsense. So you might want to stop tossing stones in your summer house. 


  • 0

#67 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0757 AM

https://www.dailymai...ers-person.html

 

Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam today apologised to the public a second time over a controversial extradition law that sparked some of the city's most violent mass demonstrations.

'I have heard the people loud and clear ... I offer my most sincere apology to each and every Hong Kong citizen,' the chief executive said during a press conference. 'This incident has made me realise that I have to do better.' 

The apology came after protesters rejected a brief government statement she put out on Sunday following an unprecedented march, which organisers said drew nearly two million people. The statement failed to pacify many marchers who said they no longer trusted her and doubted her ability to govern.

The Beijing-backed leader refused to say whether the legislation would be withdrawn, only that it was 'very unlikely' the government could pass the bill before the current legislative session expires next year.

Lam said that unless the government was able to address concerns about the proposed laws 'we will not proceed with the legislative exercise again'. 

She also ignored calls for her resignation, saying she intends to finish her five-year term as the city's chief executive and wants a second chance to 'meet the aspirations of the Hong Kong people.'

 

'Because this bill over the past few months has caused so much anxiety, and worries and differences in opinion, I will not - this is an undertaking - I will not proceed again with this legislative exercise if these fears and anxieties cannot be adequately addressed,' Lam told reporters in a closely-watched press conference. 

Lam, elected in 2017, also said she was saddened by the fact that some people, including police officers and members of the press, were injured during the clash last Wednesday. 

'I personally have to shoulder much of the responsibility. This has led to controversies, disputes and anxieties in society,' she said. 

'I hope those injured in the protests can recover soon and that the rift in society can be quickly mended,' she added.

 

 Someone is going to have a new career as director of the Hong Kong Dog pound at this rate.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 18 June 2019 - 0759 AM.

  • 0

#68 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0812 AM

https://www.foxnews....-protests-trump

Hong Kong’s message to Beijing is loud and clear. That city won’t succumb to creeping Chinese control, and the rest of the world shouldn’t either.

The crowds filling the streets between Hong Kong’s thin skyscrapers want to protect their autonomy, free speech, and basic rights against an insidious tide of Chinese Communist party influence. What started as a rally at the legislature against an extradition bill is now an unforgettable moment for this city of 7 million.

“Before this week I’d never been on a protest,” one 28-year-old Hong Kong resident told Britain’s The Guardian.

 

“We are watching the people of Hong Kong speak about the things they value,” said Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said to Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday.

Hong Kong’s protests are a massive repudiation of Xi Jinping’s consolidation of power. Hong Kong is also showing the world that Trump was right. It’s high time to confront China.

Beijing would love to make Hong Kong shut up. Hong Kong was a thriving British colony from 1842 until 1997. But Hong Kong depended on supply from the mainland, China was getting stronger, and it seemed like time to welcome China to the Western economic and financial system. Still, when Britain handed over control in 1997, Hong Kong made a good deal. China’s leader Deng Xiaoping promised Hong Kong a high degree of autonomy until 2047. Hong Kong kept its own court system, and most of the legal and institutional protections of a Western democracy under the doctrine of “one country, two systems.”

That included free speech and unrestricted internet access and street rallies – privileges rarely seen in mainland China. Hong Kong remains a prosperous financial hub and residents exercise their free speech rights with events like the so-called umbrella protests of 2014 and annual remembrances of the June 4, 1989, Tiananmen Square incident. A cherished element of the agreement was that Hong Kong would not allow extraditions to mainland China. You can imagine why.

 

The new bill to permit Taiwan, mainland China, and other jurisdictions to extradite fugitives was sneaky. Just plugging a loophole and catching criminals, Hong Kong’s leadership claimed. Not so fast. China does not have an independent justice system. Hong Kong does. The extradition measure, if passed by Hong Kong’s legislature, would let Beijing pick up political dissidents, or really anyone, in Hong Kong.

In this jewel of a city, people could just disappear.

Small protests began in March. Hong Kong Executive Carrie Lam said the bill would not apply to political crimes. Few believed her. Lam was appointed directly by Beijing, and she had put the extradition bill on a 20-day fast track.

Then in June, protests grew. This past weekend, organizers estimated 2 million out of Hong Kong’s population of over 7 million took to the streets. Hong Kong police counted several hundred thousand at a minimum. The protests brought Hong Kong to a standstill.

Consider that Dr. Martin Luther King’s March on Washington for Freedom and Jobs on August 28, 1963, tallied about 300,000, according to the National Park Service.

Whatever the exact headcount, the point is Hong Kong won’t succumb quietly.

Yes, there is a brutal murder case at the center of it all. Back in February 2018, 20-year old Chan Tong-Kai killed his pregnant girlfriend, stuffed her in a pink suitcase, and dumped the body on the outskirts of Taipei, Taiwan. Then he stole money from her bank account and fled back to Hong Kong. Chan confessed. Taiwan indicted him in late 2018, and that’s when the extradition problem arose. Sadly, the brutal murder case was basically exploited as a political smokescreen.

For its part, Taiwan has sided with Hong Kong’s protestors. Taiwan said back in May they no longer wanted fugitive, Chan. The political fate of Hong Kong is just too important.

For Xi, the scenes in the streets of Hong Kong are a nightmare. Xi hates unrest. Most of China’s 1.3 billion people won’t even see what’s happening in Hong Kong because China blocks news and internet access.

The lesson of Hong Kong? Hold firm when China won’t play by the rules. Trump saw that early on. Hence the tariffs and trade talks. Great Britain realized it too, deciding to remove Huawei devices from sensitive emergency response networks.

 

Xi could do better as a world leader, for instance, by overt help with North Korean denuclearization and by cutting out the mischief in the South China Seas. Internally, China’s challenge is how to allow more freedoms alongside its prosperity.

Or there is the dark choice: more crackdowns, more control. Thanks to Hong Kong, the world will be watching.

 

 

 

 

Actually im not sure she is right about removing Huawei devices. The debate is still out on that. But spot on with the rest.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 18 June 2019 - 0812 AM.

  • 0

#69 sunday

sunday

    Bronze-age right-wing delusional retard

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,863 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Badalona, Spain
  • Interests:Technology, History

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0841 AM

Nice to see you have recovered from the flu, Stuart!

Well we are all trading with them, so we must all like and support them on some level.
 
You can only blame Bill Clinton so far. You cant blame him for the continued appeasement across the west as the PRC inexorably eases across the line of civilized behavior with nothing so much as a wagged finger. When the Soviets did it, we had Charter 77. What have we got now? Nothing.
 
This was on the BBC the other day, describes what China has been doing to its largely forgotten Muslim population. Muslims today, Hong Kong next week I suppose.
 
https://www.bbc.co.u...na_hidden_camps

 
Before the Muslims, there were mistreated Tibetans. Quite roughly in fact, up to forced abortions.

Edited by sunday, 18 June 2019 - 0842 AM.

  • 0

#70 Panzermann

Panzermann

    REFORGER '79

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,233 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Teutonistan

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0850 AM

These are some truly fine people, they really dont give a flying fuck for authority. Maybe we taught them something worth learning after all. :D

 

Union Jacks have been waved on the demonstrations. Theoretically the treaty for handing over guaranteed that Hong Kong keeps its democratic institutions, but that has of course been undermined by Beijing. One country two systems. Yeah, right.


  • 0

#71 Panzermann

Panzermann

    REFORGER '79

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,233 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Teutonistan

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0852 AM

Nice to see you have recovered from the flu, Stuart!
 

Well we are all trading with them, so we must all like and support them on some level.
 
You can only blame Bill Clinton so far. You cant blame him for the continued appeasement across the west as the PRC inexorably eases across the line of civilized behavior with nothing so much as a wagged finger. When the Soviets did it, we had Charter 77. What have we got now? Nothing.
 
This was on the BBC the other day, describes what China has been doing to its largely forgotten Muslim population. Muslims today, Hong Kong next week I suppose.
 
https://www.bbc.co.u...na_hidden_camps

 
Before the Muslims, there were mistreated Tibetans. Quite roughly in fact, up to forced abortions.

 

 

The one child policy was applied all over the PRC. Or was that earlier? 


  • 0

#72 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0921 AM

 

These are some truly fine people, they really dont give a flying fuck for authority. Maybe we taught them something worth learning after all. :D

 

Union Jacks have been waved on the demonstrations. Theoretically the treaty for handing over guaranteed that Hong Kong keeps its democratic institutions, but that has of course been undermined by Beijing. One country two systems. Yeah, right.

 

 

Yeah I noticed that too. Its helped Chris Patten, not perhaps historically the most politically decisive figures ive ever seen, has spoken up in their defence too.

 

Hammond the Chancellor the other day was talking about trading with China, and how we have systems to deal with any damages to our national security. One might wonder at the point of signing deals with a country that is happy to violate them in less than 2 decades. Which in a country with their age is seriously broadband speed.


  • 0

#73 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0931 AM

Nice to see you have recovered from the flu, Stuart!
 

Well we are all trading with them, so we must all like and support them on some level.
 
You can only blame Bill Clinton so far. You cant blame him for the continued appeasement across the west as the PRC inexorably eases across the line of civilized behavior with nothing so much as a wagged finger. When the Soviets did it, we had Charter 77. What have we got now? Nothing.
 
This was on the BBC the other day, describes what China has been doing to its largely forgotten Muslim population. Muslims today, Hong Kong next week I suppose.
 
https://www.bbc.co.u...na_hidden_camps

 
Before the Muslims, there were mistreated Tibetans. Quite roughly in fact, up to forced abortions.

 

 

Getting there still, but thank you for the kind thoughts. :)

 

And you are right. Its nothing they havent done before.


  • 0

#74 Panzermann

Panzermann

    REFORGER '79

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,233 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Teutonistan

Posted 18 June 2019 - 0951 AM

 

 

These are some truly fine people, they really dont give a flying fuck for authority. Maybe we taught them something worth learning after all. :D

 

Union Jacks have been waved on the demonstrations. Theoretically the treaty for handing over guaranteed that Hong Kong keeps its democratic institutions, but that has of course been undermined by Beijing. One country two systems. Yeah, right.

 

 

Yeah I noticed that too. Its helped Chris Patten, not perhaps historically the most politically decisive figures ive ever seen, has spoken up in their defence too.

 

Hammond the Chancellor the other day was talking about trading with China, and how we have systems to deal with any damages to our national security. One might wonder at the point of signing deals with a country that is happy to violate them in less than 2 decades. Which in a country with their age is seriously broadband speed.

 

 

The People's Republic of China has a very different understanding what democratic means obviously.

 

And honouring treaties, well, the  UK has a long history of not doing so. Perfidious Albion, remember? The USA has broken an international treaty recently and very loudly. The list goes on. State actors do this all the time, when they believe they can get away with it.


  • 0

#75 Nobu

Nobu

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,625 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 June 2019 - 1107 AM

I am disappointed at how quickly this Carrie Lam backed down, as Chinese-on-Chinese disunity and violence has historically been a thing to nurture and take advantage of, much like an ambitious warlord in various ways. 

 

Interestingly, the number of Hongkongese who turned out to protest second-class-citizen laws for their domestic servant population was around 50. How easily the Hongkongese definition of oppression changes depending on which side of it one is on.


  • 0

#76 Jeff

Jeff

    Godfather of Tanknet Birthday Greetings

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,909 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 June 2019 - 0623 AM

 

These are some truly fine people, they really dont give a flying fuck for authority. Maybe we taught them something worth learning after all. :D

 

Union Jacks have been waved on the demonstrations. Theoretically the treaty for handing over guaranteed that Hong Kong keeps its democratic institutions, but that has of course been undermined by Beijing. One country two systems. Yeah, right.

 

 

It was an "honorable" agreement, full of diplomatic speak and "guarantees" of many things but anyone with a brain knew at the time it was a lie and way to remove oneself from an uncomfortable situation and to let someone else deal with the consequences down the road. They may as well have waived a piece of paper and claimed "peace in our time". Anyone who tells themselves otherwise isn't being honest with themselves.


  • 0

#77 Murph

Murph

    Hierophant Lord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 June 2019 - 0634 AM

The West thinks in years, the Chinese in Centuries, that is why we lose.


  • 0

#78 R011

R011

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,590 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted 19 June 2019 - 0701 AM

Hong Kong was supposed to turn the PRC into a Western-style demicracy like they were through force of example by now.
  • 0

#79 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 19 June 2019 - 0721 AM

No, capitalism was supposed to do that. Which was complete crap. Capitalism didnt do a damn thing to turn The German Empire or Tsarist Russia into Democracies, Ive no idea why they would think it would work better in a Communist state. It sure as hell didnt work in post Soviet Russia, and not that well in many former Soviet states, other than maybe the Balts.

 

Capitalism works best in Democratic states. And I think without Democracy, it would never have come into being the way it did.  But it can operate fine in authoritarian regimes. I hear the Soviet Union had some quite nice little markets and black economies if you knew where to look for them.  In China, it works well with massive state intervention. We of course tell ourselves that is not the way the game is played, but nobody said they had to use the same rulebook as we do.


  • 0

#80 Nobu

Nobu

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,625 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 June 2019 - 1114 AM

I'd hate to have seen the alternative, which was the Nationalist Chinese winning their civil war. The Sea of Japan might have been renamed the North China Sea by now.


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users