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Indian Air Strikes Target Militants In Pakistan (+)


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#141 glenn239

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 1602 PM

https://economictime...ow/68296635.cms

 

Interview with Indian pilot shot down - claims F-16 with R-73.  Article indicates that 4 AMRAAM's were fired and that 'prompt' tactical action by the SU-30's defeated the missiles.  Not sure what that means unless they turned around and got the hell out of Dodge when fired upon. 


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#142 GARGEAN

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 1659 PM

R-77 were stated to be capable of intercepting missiles like AIM-120 and MIM-104. Maybe that was confirmation of that.


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#143 Yama

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 0753 AM

Most likely they simply turned away when the missiles, probably shot at extreme range, were detected.
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#144 glenn239

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 0915 AM

I'd guess more along the lines of the Yama theory - maybe the Indian Air Force used the SU-30's thrust vectoring to draw the AMRAAM shots, which they promptly outmaneuvered, then sent the MIG-21's in supersonic. 


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#145 Roman Alymov

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 1250 PM

Russian media summary on this conflict


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#146 Yama

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 2036 PM

I'd guess more along the lines of the Yama theory - maybe the Indian Air Force used the SU-30's thrust vectoring to draw the AMRAAM shots, which they promptly outmaneuvered, then sent the MIG-21's in supersonic.


MiGs were in the mix first, their base was very next to the bombing targets, other Indian fighters apparently missed the party proper and only got to dodge few Parthian shots lobbed by withdrawing Pakistani fighters.
Likely when the Su-30's arrived, first MiG was already shot down and second (?) one disengaged to avoid same fate.
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#147 Chris Werb

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 0340 AM

 

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Guys, please have a look at a map of the Kashmir border area and tell me where you are going to base Indian S400s and how you are going to get them to those bases.

 

First, they'd have to have the thing, which they don't.  

 

Deploy the radars and command center and some of the missiles somewhere around Jammu/Amritsar, with some of the battery's other missiles remotely deployed on the line Uri, Poonch, Hafthrada. 

 

 

 

Now take a look at what that actually looks like in satellite imagery or a relief map. This is Uri, for example

 

https://www.google.c...0339852!5m1!1e4

 

 

 

If the battery radars are at Jammu or Amritsar then they are well situated to protect New Delhi and dominate the entire Punjab/Kashmir air space.  Some missiles at Uri (deployed via the S-3) provide coverage further north.  A-50 on patrol, or other such aerial network assets would have to provide via datalink the information to the S-400 command centre against targets attempting nap of the earth tactics in this region.  That was my guess.  

 

To go up against the SU-30/A77 the F-16/AMRAAM needs to be at high altitude coming eastwards over Islamabad for its best kinematic missile shot.  But this is exactly the flight profile in which an S-400 at Jammu could chop them to pieces.  Bit of a poser for the Pakistanis in that case.

 

 

Sorry, but you haven't really understood the map or the geometry involved.


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#148 glenn239

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 0744 AM

 

I'd guess more along the lines of the Yama theory - maybe the Indian Air Force used the SU-30's thrust vectoring to draw the AMRAAM shots, which they promptly outmaneuvered, then sent the MIG-21's in supersonic.


MiGs were in the mix first, their base was very next to the bombing targets, other Indian fighters apparently missed the party proper and only got to dodge few Parthian shots lobbed by withdrawing Pakistani fighters.
Likely when the Su-30's arrived, first MiG was already shot down and second (?) one disengaged to avoid same fate.

 

 

As good a guess as I've seen yet...


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#149 glenn239

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 0840 AM

 

 

 

Sorry, but you haven't really understood the map or the geometry involved.

 

 

 

The point of an S-400 to my eye would be dominate at high altitude over Islamabad so that the Indian Air Force could engage and destroy the Pakistani Air Force from a position of height advantage while protecting the New Delhi axis.  If the PAF uses high alttitude tactics the S-400 destroys them.  If they use low-level tactics to avoid the S-400 then the SU-30/A-77 destroys them from high altitude, or the S-400 will datalink via the A-50's or other 3rd party platforms to engage such targets.

 

So the three assumptions I made are that (1) the IAF has a significant combat advantage with the R-77 if the Pakistani air force is forced to fly lower; (2) the S-400's missiles can be deployed remotely = 100's of KM, say at Poonch - from the fire control radar and (3) that S-400 at 200km (Jammu to Islamabad) has no problems firing at targets, either directly or via datalink to 3rd party systems.  Which of these is not correct? 

 

The key assumption is that I'm assuming that if the Pakistani Air Force wants to fly low to avoid the S-400 at Jammu, then the SU-30's at 30,000 feet will have a field day, and if it flies high for good AMRAAM shots, then the S-400 will have a field day.  


Edited by glenn239, 11 March 2019 - 0853 AM.

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#150 JWB

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 1100 AM


 

 

Pakistan denied that the Indian airstrike had hit anything at Balakot and India initially refused to release its own satellite photos of the Balakot site after the attack. Soon commercial satellite photos were released that did not show any large craters at Balakot the day after but higher resolution commercial satellite photos were eventually available showing three craters (and blast damage to trees around them). The craters were in a pattern similar to three buildings at Balakot and this indicated that the Indians had not entered the altitude of the targets, just the GPS coordinates indicating location. For a smart bomb coming down vertically the altitude of targets rarely matters. But since Balakot was above sea level and the SPICE 2000 bombs were gliding in from a distance all three appear to have missed their targets in a manner suggesting SPICE was not using the pattern recognition feature of its guidance system and was instead heading for a precise GPS location at sea level and thus glided over the targets.

https://www.strategy...s/20190410.aspx


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#151 Nobu

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 1852 PM

All Pakistani F-16s present and accounted for according to the non-Indian source Foreign Policy.

 

The eagerness of India and Indians to claim an F-16 kill now starts to appear more like desperation in various ways. The sound of 1.3 billion Indians crying out as one in rage at the news will likely create an environment for hostilities to continue.


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#152 Colin

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 2117 PM

Possible they shot down something else?


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#153 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 0215 AM

Im not sure the fixation everyone has on the F16 is a great idea. For all we know this might have been a JF17.


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#154 Josh

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 1105 AM

Regardless, the bombing itself seems to have been an embarrassing failure. I don't 100% buy the altitude excuse, because I didn't think that is how GPS bombs have their coordinates loaded, but it does seem clear nothing of value was hit. Where as the Indians definitely lost an aircraft in the ensuing air battle.


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#155 Chris Werb

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 0532 AM

Glenn, you're still not getting the geometry of mountains and mountain valleys vs radar, even on aircraft flying comparatively high.
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#156 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 0535 AM

20 minutes of multiplayer on DCS, he would get it. I just wasted 4 perfectly good Phoenix missiles because some bar steward decided to duck behind a mountain. Some people just dont want to stand and fight fair.


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#157 glenn239

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 0939 AM

Glenn, you're still not getting the geometry of mountains and mountain valleys vs radar, even on aircraft flying comparatively high.

 

Using the example of high points around Amistrar and Jammu and looking in the direction of Islamabad.  You're saying, even if the available elevation is several hundred meters above the plains, the mountains somewhere around maybe Kotli or Gujar Khan are obstructing the horizon at and east of Islamabad to above 30,000 feet, correct?  


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#158 glenn239

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 0942 AM

 

Glenn, you're still not getting the geometry of mountains and mountain valleys vs radar, even on aircraft flying comparatively high.

 

 

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Using the example of high points around Amistrar and Jammu and looking in the direction of Islamabad.  You're saying, even if the available elevation is several hundred meters above the plains, the mountains somewhere around maybe Kotli or Gujar Khan are obstructing the horizon at and east of Islamabad to above 30,000 feet, correct?   Which ones?

 

 

I just wasted 4 perfectly good Phoenix missiles because some bar steward decided to duck behind a mountain.

 

 

Phoenix is to a 40N6 as AA-2 Atoll is to an AIM-9X.


Edited by glenn239, 13 April 2019 - 0942 AM.

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#159 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 1042 AM

Glenn, you really need to go and read something about the AWG-9/Phoenix combination. Its yet to be bettered.


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#160 GARGEAN

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 1232 PM

...In DCS.


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