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Aim-120D For The Uk?


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 1931 PM

I thought that Meteor was the once-and-future long(er) range missile?:

 

http://www.dsca.mil/...ngdom_18-03.pdf


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#2 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0227 AM

I seem to recall somewhere they were buying Amraam for F35B, at least for initial IOC. Meteor is planned to be integrated later, or so I believe.


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#3 Briganza

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0331 AM

I seem to recall somewhere they were buying Amraam for F35B, at least for initial IOC. Meteor is planned to be integrated later, or so I believe.

Saw a report that the F35 was in Brough for testing the other week. It has now been shipped back to Texas via Immingham.


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#4 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0435 AM

Hmm, doesnt sound good. I noticed on the flypast there was only 3. I figured one was down with a problem.


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#5 Briganza

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0451 AM

I think it was part of a planned test not a warranty issue.

 

 

It then set sail for three weeks to Texas where its manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, is headquartered and where the fighter will continue its final structural tests.

 

Someone may have been a bit liberal with the information they were giving out. 

 

It caught my eye as unless Brough has built a jetty very recently I couldn't see how they got it on a barge. I may have to go and look latter in the week.


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#6 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0459 AM

Wow, Airfix have really upped their game, havent they? :)


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#7 Anixtu

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0800 AM

It caught my eye as unless Brough has built a jetty very recently I couldn't see how they got it on a barge. I may have to go and look latter in the week.


http://www.robertwyn...o.uk/index.html

Don't need infrastructure, just drag it off the beach/shore. ;-)
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#8 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0802 AM

Ive got a feeling they used heavy haulage tractors back in the day. They may have one of their's in Wroughton if I remember rightly, which I probably dont.


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#9 Briganza

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0830 AM

 

It caught my eye as unless Brough has built a jetty very recently I couldn't see how they got it on a barge. I may have to go and look latter in the week.


http://www.robertwyn...o.uk/index.html

Don't need infrastructure, just drag it off the beach/shore. ;-)

 

Thanks for that, it does answer some questions but also brings up more. I will have to walk along the Humber as you still have a lot of foreshore to cross even at high tide.


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#10 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 0848 AM

Thought this was interesting.

 

https://www.telegrap...-near-miss.html


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#11 rmgill

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 1119 AM

Is there not a way to make the Tornado's radar compatible for guiding AIM 120? :huh:

The telegraph article make's it sound like the Blue Circle radar can't guide the missile, but it's not SARH in the first place.

Looking at wikipedia (with more info at DefenseTalk), that says that the mid-course update kit was NOT bought by MOD. Looking closer, the design get's target info from the aircraft, either from radar, or IR search track, or from data links from another aircraft OR from AWACs. Which has me thinking it's not the radar itself but rather lack of kit/interface for Foxhunter to hand off target information to the missile in the first place.  It sounds like the design to hand target data off was not incorporated into the system which means you're trying to hit a target from the start in self-guiding terminal mode (pitbull).

Edit found more info....unsure of accuracy.:
From Secret Projects.co.uk
 

 

Variants
 

  • B initial “complete” version, flew in 1983.
  • W First production version, 70 built. Fitted to Batch 4 Blocks 8 + 9, Batch 5 Block 10. 44 “W” later upgraded to “Z” standard from 1988.
  • Z 80 built. Fitted to Batch 5 Block 11, Batch 6 Block 12. Broadly met initial requirements, but not the revised requirements.
  • Stage 1 76 built from September 1988. Fitted from Batch 6 Block 13 to 15.  Improved radar functions related to the aircraft's new F-18 style HOTAS (Hands On Throttle and Stick) controls, improved cooling (for Saudi ADV) and refined TWS and ECCM algorithms. HUD Search mode, activated by a HOTAS switch, scans the 20 deg field of view of the HUD and automatically locks on to any detected target. 124 “Z” radars were upgraded to Stage 1 software.
  • Stage 1+ was rushed through in 1991 for the Gulf War. Radar designation is  AA, with revised software.
  • Stage 2 was intended to be the definitive Foxhunter, fully meeting the revised requirements of the RAF.
  • Stage 2G was introduced from 1996; includes NCTR (Non-Cooperative Target Recognition) technology.  Radar designation is AB.
  • Stage 2G* upgraded the radar processors and software.
  • Stage 2H upgraded the radar processor and optimised software.
  • CSP (Capability Sustainment Programme) was signed 5 March 1996, providing for upgrades to 100 Tornado F3s to allow use of AIM-120 AMRAAM and ASRAAM missiles. Radar upgrades would allow multi-target engagement capability, and attempt to unify the fleet on a common radar standard. Other targets included reducing susceptibility to ECM and improved serviceability. CSP was implemented in two stages in order to deliver some operational advantages as soon as possible. First delivery was made in 1998, and both phases were scheduled to be completed by 2002.  It did not include a mid-course update facility for the AIM-120 AMRAAM, due to technical difficulties.
  • AOP (AMRAAM Optimisation Programme) was signed on 8 June 2001, for the provision of a mid-course guidance capability for AMRAAM on Tornado F3 aircraft, initial IOC was end 2002, and the upgrade program was concluded by late 2004.
  • FSP (F3 Sustainment Programme) Signed in December 2004, FSP sets out to address a number of issues identified at the end of the AOP (AMRAAM Optimisation Programme). It includes integration of AIM-120C-5 and ASRAAM FOC2 and enhancement of the weapons systems capability, particularly the displays, through a number of radar computer and main computer software changes. In December 2005, a Tornado F3 fired two AIM-120C-5s at subsonic targets.

So the AMRAAM optimization program was funded and they didn't buy the kit?


Sounds like MOD cheaped out again and now stuff doesn't work.



Ohhh, FSP was AFTER Stuart's article. Which makes it rather anachronistic in the context of current developments.


Edited by rmgill, 11 July 2018 - 1140 AM.

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#12 Chris Werb

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 1619 PM

I don't have the links but have read several articles that envisage 5th gen aircraft acting as targeting systems for 4th gen aircraft following some distance behind. That would work well with Typhoon armed with Meteor backing up AMRAAM armed F35s. The US has done something similar with F15s supporting F22s and there was a proposal to double the AMRAAM load on the F15 to support this tactic.
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#13 DB

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 1706 PM

So it's clear that the F35 leaving Immingham by boat has nothing to do with the four that flew across a few weeks ago, or the presence of only 3 at the flypast.

 

(Foxhunter <> Blue Circle, by the way.)

 

For reference: https://www.mbda-sys...t-step-forward/

 

Also, check out the fins here https://mbdainc.com/services/meteor/

 

And compare with here 

 

https://www.mbda-sys...product/meteor/


Edited by DB, 11 July 2018 - 1706 PM.

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#14 rmgill

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 1800 PM

So it's clear that the F35 leaving Immingham by boat has nothing to do with the four that flew across a few weeks ago, or the presence of only 3 at the flypast.

 

(Foxhunter <> Blue Circle, by the way.)

 

Yes...

featured-mastercrete-400x250.png


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#15 Anixtu

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 0220 AM


 

It caught my eye as unless Brough has built a jetty very recently I couldn't see how they got it on a barge. I may have to go and look latter in the week.

http://www.robertwyn...o.uk/index.html

Don't need infrastructure, just drag it off the beach/shore. ;-)
 
Thanks for that, it does answer some questions but also brings up more. I will have to walk along the Humber as you still have a lot of foreshore to cross even at high tide.

They went for a small barge/big crane:
https://www.baesyste...ht--of-the-f-35
http://www.aerospace...?ArticleID=2273

I don't think the Terra Marique has seen much use recently, more or less laid up at Portland for years.
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#16 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 0309 AM

Is there not a way to make the Tornado's radar compatible for guiding AIM 120? :huh:

The telegraph article make's it sound like the Blue Circle radar can't guide the missile, but it's not SARH in the first place.

Looking at wikipedia (with more info at DefenseTalk), that says that the mid-course update kit was NOT bought by MOD. Looking closer, the design get's target info from the aircraft, either from radar, or IR search track, or from data links from another aircraft OR from AWACs. Which has me thinking it's not the radar itself but rather lack of kit/interface for Foxhunter to hand off target information to the missile in the first place.  It sounds like the design to hand target data off was not incorporated into the system which means you're trying to hit a target from the start in self-guiding terminal mode (pitbull).

Edit found more info....unsure of accuracy.:
From Secret Projects.co.uk
 

 

Variants
 

  • B initial “complete” version, flew in 1983.
  • W First production version, 70 built. Fitted to Batch 4 Blocks 8 + 9, Batch 5 Block 10. 44 “W” later upgraded to “Z” standard from 1988.
  • Z 80 built. Fitted to Batch 5 Block 11, Batch 6 Block 12. Broadly met initial requirements, but not the revised requirements.
  • Stage 1 76 built from September 1988. Fitted from Batch 6 Block 13 to 15.  Improved radar functions related to the aircraft's new F-18 style HOTAS (Hands On Throttle and Stick) controls, improved cooling (for Saudi ADV) and refined TWS and ECCM algorithms. HUD Search mode, activated by a HOTAS switch, scans the 20 deg field of view of the HUD and automatically locks on to any detected target. 124 “Z” radars were upgraded to Stage 1 software.
  • Stage 1+ was rushed through in 1991 for the Gulf War. Radar designation is  AA, with revised software.
  • Stage 2 was intended to be the definitive Foxhunter, fully meeting the revised requirements of the RAF.
  • Stage 2G was introduced from 1996; includes NCTR (Non-Cooperative Target Recognition) technology.  Radar designation is AB.
  • Stage 2G* upgraded the radar processors and software.
  • Stage 2H upgraded the radar processor and optimised software.
  • CSP (Capability Sustainment Programme) was signed 5 March 1996, providing for upgrades to 100 Tornado F3s to allow use of AIM-120 AMRAAM and ASRAAM missiles. Radar upgrades would allow multi-target engagement capability, and attempt to unify the fleet on a common radar standard. Other targets included reducing susceptibility to ECM and improved serviceability. CSP was implemented in two stages in order to deliver some operational advantages as soon as possible. First delivery was made in 1998, and both phases were scheduled to be completed by 2002.  It did not include a mid-course update facility for the AIM-120 AMRAAM, due to technical difficulties.
  • AOP (AMRAAM Optimisation Programme) was signed on 8 June 2001, for the provision of a mid-course guidance capability for AMRAAM on Tornado F3 aircraft, initial IOC was end 2002, and the upgrade program was concluded by late 2004.
  • FSP (F3 Sustainment Programme) Signed in December 2004, FSP sets out to address a number of issues identified at the end of the AOP (AMRAAM Optimisation Programme). It includes integration of AIM-120C-5 and ASRAAM FOC2 and enhancement of the weapons systems capability, particularly the displays, through a number of radar computer and main computer software changes. In December 2005, a Tornado F3 fired two AIM-120C-5s at subsonic targets.

So the AMRAAM optimization program was funded and they didn't buy the kit?


Sounds like MOD cheaped out again and now stuff doesn't work.



Ohhh, FSP was AFTER Stuart's article. Which makes it rather anachronistic in the context of current developments.

 

Yeah, I think  that they were envisaging this on a Tornado ADV, I dont think it would have had much place on a GR4. As they withdrew them within a couple of years, im not really sure what they were thinking about, unless it was some last gasp effort to hold onto more airframes.

 

Its quite interesting, I read in the old Digital Integration manual for the 'Tornado' sim, circa 1993, that BAE were pushing an active version of Skyflash that for one reason or another never got built. An interesting way to use up old Skyflash missile bodies, though clearly it would have paled compared to Meteor.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 12 July 2018 - 0312 AM.

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#17 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 0318 AM

Two different positions on F35B armament.

https://defense-upda...f35_meteor.html

 

 

https://www.forces.n...issile-end-year

 

Not mutually exclusive, but it does make me wonder if they think Meteor might be too difficult for internal carriage, and are opting for external carriage for fleet defence. Or at least, covering their bases if the former proves too difficult to develop. 2024 is a fair old gallop away.


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#18 DB

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 0552 AM

The first article is basically the pr I posted judst above Capt. Obvious' picture of a cement bag.

The second doesn't contradict the Meteor integration story at all, but does imply that fully integrating AMRAAM even on a new platform, isn't trivial.
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#19 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 0557 AM

Sorry, missed that one.


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#20 Dawes

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 1914 PM

Don't know all the cost data, but I suspect that Meteor is considerably more expensive than AMRAAM. Of course, it's more capable also.


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