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#21 DougRichards

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 0555 AM

Perhaps the Germans / Swiss could have taken lessons from the Poles.

 

The Oerlikon / Becker gun.  Yes, that 20mm weapon.  A good gun, but that had 250 components, which the Poles reduced to 119, and reduced the cost by 80% without reducing the effectiveness of the weapon. 


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#22 Panzermann

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 0746 AM

Perhaps the Germans / Swiss could have taken lessons from the Poles.

 

The Oerlikon / Becker gun.  Yes, that 20mm weapon.  A good gun, but that had 250 components, which the Poles reduced to 119, and reduced the cost by 80% without reducing the effectiveness of the weapon. 

 

The poles simplified the action of the becker machine cannon. It is most often the case that the more complicated solution is built fist and then simplified adn all unnessesary parts and pieces removed. Although the MP-18 was a simple open bolt blowback sub-machine gun, the STEN is even simpler. The Sterling then introduced those overly complicated magazines with rollers. Well it is not a straight line. :D


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#23 Markus Becker

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 0912 AM

 

 

I love watching videos where Ian et al strip early machineguns and semi/automatic rifles and have spent a fair amount on books on same. What always strikes me about the early examples is the immense amount of often exquisitely beautiful engineering that went into making them vs the insane complexity of their operation and/or field strip and reassembly procedures. It's one of the few areas of technology that have gotten dramatically simpler over time. I can draw the internals of an AR15 or AK47 from memory with a fair degree of accuracy, but it took me quite a few viewings comprehend this and I wouldn't know where to begin to draw it from memory:

https://youtu.be/ofZnarVq8pw?t=442

 

Making things simple is difficult.

 

 

Especially if you're German :)

 

 

The MP40, MG42, G3 and several Mausers would like to have a word with you. 


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#24 Markus Becker

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 0917 AM

About Ep4. I didn't expect such complications but as the three explain, we are dealing with 1st generation LMG.


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#25 Chris Werb

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 1207 PM

 

I know little of the Blaser action. I know its locking system uses claws in a way similar to a machine tool, a simple solution, and remember reading about too hot loads making the action to fail.

 

 

 

It's not so much that it fails as how it fails. In the Mauser 98 (a rifle that has really stood the test of time and is prized for custom hunting rifles to this day) quite a bit of thought went into stopping a case head separation or other mishap hurting the user. In the R93 the bolt can come straight back at the user's face.

 

https://www.africahu...-warning.14239/


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#26 Chris Werb

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 1242 PM

 

(...)
I thought the main reason the Remington Model 8 didn't make it to general issue was it's terrible stripping procedure, until I watched that BAR segment. What I find strange is that I have read extensively about the BAR and don't recall ever reading any complaints about takedown and reassembly.

 
David Hackworth wrote enthusiastically on the BAR service in Korea. I wonder how often a takedown of the order seen in the video was necessary.

 

This is a quick survey of a few books I have.

 

"Ordnance Went Up Front" by Roy F. Dunlap

 

"The Browning is a good gun, but it requires too much shop maintenance for use as a field weapon in all military branches. On a pro-rata basis, for more repair jobs were done on these automatic rifles than on any other weapon the US forces used, with the possible exception of the rocket launchers (bazookas).  The BAR carbons up fast and th gas cylinder "body" or plug, which has the three differing sized gas ports for regulating the amount passed into the cylinder quickly sets and very often is impossible to remove without equiplment. When they cannot be cleaned often, they rust and when they rust they wear oversize and when they wear oversize they leak gas around the piston; the gun goes "bang," period, the next time it is tried. Back to the shop again, where the cylinder could be carefully clamped in a vise and a pipewrench applied to the plug. I preferred to heat expand the cylinder at the threads with a fast welding-torch treatment and unscrew them hot without marring the soft steel. The troopers usually could not remove them for cleaning every day the gun was used and a lot of them never seemed to learn that it was far more important to clean the gas handling parts than the barrel"

 

"US Infantry Weapons of the First World War" by Bruce N. Canfield

 

No comment.

 

"Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian S. Hatcher.

 

No comment

 

"Use of Infantry Weapons in Korea" Operations Research Office, August 1952

 

"Of 22 officers questioned <snip>, five officers claimed that the BAR was too heavy and complicated, although not specifically asked."

 

"RELIABILITY - Statement: In winter 40 percent of them report no difficulty with the BAR functioning, but 38 percent say it is out of action one-fourth of the time or more (21 percent say one-half time or more). The corresponding figures for wet weather are 50 percent no difficulty, 22 percent out of action one-fourth of the time or more (10 percent one-half the tim). Of 17 officers commenting, 11 thought these percentages about right, Five thought the percentages out of action too high."

 

I also have a report on infantry weapons usage on Guadalcanal that Mike from BotR sent me a while back - it makes no mention of complexity or field stripping problems with the BAR.


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#27 bojan

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 1244 PM

...

It's not so much that it fails as how it fails. In the Mauser 98 (a rifle that has really stood the test of time and is prized for custom hunting rifles to this day) quite a bit of thought went into stopping a case head separation or other mishap hurting the user...

 

Serbian* and Yugo Mausers were only ones to have "safety breach" where cartridge base was not exposed (it was originally applied locally around 1903-4 to a M.99 Mausers as there were headspacing issues with a ammo of a various manufacture. Later it was ordered with M.99/07, M.08 and M.10 and adopted to a locally produced M.24 and M48. It was also adopted to a Mannlicher M.95/24 conversions.

For some unknown reason Mauser never adopted it*, even if they could use it royalty free (as by the contract any Serbian improvement of rifles could be used by Mauser w/o paying for it).

 

*Costa Rica and some other minor Lat-Am country also used it, but those were same rifles as Serbian M.10 from a contract overrun.


Edited by bojan, 22 February 2019 - 1249 PM.

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#28 Chris Werb

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 1315 PM

Oddly enough, I had just watched Othias' video on the M99 Mauser which describes the issues Serbia had with a combination of cartridge base exposure and the clever way they fixed it. :)


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#29 sunday

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 1358 PM

I know little of the Blaser action. I know its locking system uses claws in a way similar to a machine tool, a simple solution, and remember reading about too hot loads making the action to fail.

 
 
It's not so much that it fails as how it fails. In the Mauser 98 (a rifle that has really stood the test of time and is prized for custom hunting rifles to this day) quite a bit of thought went into stopping a case head separation or other mishap hurting the user. In the R93 the bolt can come straight back at the user's face.
 
https://www.africahu...-warning.14239/

 
Interesting information. Seems Blaser stopped selling R93s, and went to the similar R8.
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#30 Chris Werb

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 1437 PM

 

 

I know little of the Blaser action. I know its locking system uses claws in a way similar to a machine tool, a simple solution, and remember reading about too hot loads making the action to fail.

 
 
It's not so much that it fails as how it fails. In the Mauser 98 (a rifle that has really stood the test of time and is prized for custom hunting rifles to this day) quite a bit of thought went into stopping a case head separation or other mishap hurting the user. In the R93 the bolt can come straight back at the user's face.
 
https://www.africahu...-warning.14239/

 

 
Interesting information. Seems Blaser stopped selling R93s, and went to the similar R8.

 

 

They made the change without really publicising it.


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#31 Harold Jones

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 1709 PM

Honestly the BAR didn't look terrible.  I mean their were a couple fiddly bits but once you ran through it 20 or 30 times it wouldn't be all that bad.


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#32 Chris Werb

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 0522 AM

Honestly the BAR didn't look terrible.  I mean their were a couple fiddly bits but once you ran through it 20 or 30 times it wouldn't be all that bad.


LOL. It's like Browning, who really was a genius, started with a single pin and built the rest of the rifle around it.
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#33 bojan

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 0834 AM

Horrible secret - Browning built basic methods of operation and general layout of the gun, including scale model, than other people* finished guns and worried about making it work in the production. Does not reduce his level of genius, but lets be realistic.

 

*Saive did that in FN.


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#34 Harold Jones

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 1753 PM

 

Honestly the BAR didn't look terrible.  I mean their were a couple fiddly bits but once you ran through it 20 or 30 times it wouldn't be all that bad.


LOL. It's like Browning, who really was a genius, started with a single pin and built the rest of the rifle around it.

 

This is worth watching.   was surprised at how the rate of fire limiter worked  


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#35 Chris Werb

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 0857 AM

Horrible secret - Browning built basic methods of operation and general layout of the gun, including scale model, than other people* finished guns and worried about making it work in the production. Does not reduce his level of genius, but lets be realistic.
 
*Saive did that in FN.

I'm honestly not so sure. He certainly designed and manufactured firearms in his earlier years and I can't see him not wanting to take a very close interest in the whole process until quite late in life. I expect, like me, you get a lot of joy out of attempting to design firearms or improve existing ones as a paper exercise (I wish I could afford a CAD package that did animations, but they're fearsomely expensive). One of the biggest considerations and challenges is how the thing you're designing can be easily taken apart for maintenance or repair. I try to avoid the threaded bolts and machine screws often found in sporting firearms and make pins that need removing captive where possible. Tools, except cartridges, are best not relied upon. Now. Try as I might, I can't see JMB giving his team a fag packet sketch of a concept, knowing it will be relied on by frontline soldiers in the trenches and saying "just get it to function reliably-the war will be over before they will need to take it to bits" :)
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#36 bojan

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 0925 AM

But that is how it often worked.

Ithaca 37 was a set of drawings he sold to Remington, that took almost 6 months of additional work to ready for production.

HP was more of Saive's work than his.

FN 1899/1900/1905/1910 pistols are closest to what he directly did, but they also included "production streamlining".

Colt did a lot of work on 1911 - and a lot of 1911 features were US Army wishes vs what Browning wanted - including grip angle (Browning was fan of the more vertical grip, as evidenced in FN pistols he did, and pre-1911 Colts) and safety in particular (Browning wanted only automatic safety on it).

Winchester had to seriously "streamline" his lever guns.

So I can see BAR bizarre disassembly procedure being a result of the "not enough time" for a team of engineers to streamline it after Browning designed it - after all it was designed in some super-short time, and for all that cut time it actually worked well.


Edited by bojan, 24 February 2019 - 0927 AM.

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#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 1309 PM

OK, I can see how that might have happened.


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#38 Panzermann

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 1512 PM

This is worth watching.   was surprised at how the rate of fire limiter worked 

 

You mean not at all, because it was broken? ;)

 

But the M1918 A2 BAR is still WW2 and not the original World War. Sequels suck most of the time anyway. :D


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