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MAG58s and MG42s forever?


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#41 CV9030FIN

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 1315 PM

On a more serious note, as much as love the FN-MAG I think it's to heavy for a squad weapon.
A squad MG should be light enough, for the gunner to be able to fire it from the shoulder
while standing or in the prone.
As it was, while advancing our MG-gunners fired the thing from the hip, barely being abble to hit the ground
(well sooner or later the bullets will hit the ground, but not necessarely in the right grid-square)


??? At least in AFG Swedish are using FN Minimi as a SAW in fact I don't remember seeing any FN-MAG's at all...
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#42 Olof Larsson

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 1340 PM

??? At least in AFG Swedish are using FN Minimi as a SAW in fact I don't remember seeing any FN-MAG's at all...


Well, I was in the army in the previous millenium,
when the armed forces of Sweden was still organized in brigades and composite divisions
and was supposed to defend Sweden using things like anti-personel mines
and being trained how to survive chemical weapons and nukes.

Unlike the current colonial police, organized in battalions,
and apperently being trained in using shields and sticks.

So things might have changed since my days.

I don't know what the usage of FN-MAG's looks like today, but as early as during the 1990's
swedish troops abroad used the Minimi (and the M2HB as well), weapons that was otherwise
not used by the army at all in those days.

Swedish troops abroad also used wheeled APC's,
when the army back home used
tracked APC's, BV's, trucks and bikes.
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#43 CV9030FIN

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 1342 PM

Well, I was in the army in the previous millenium,
when the armed forces of Sweden was still organized in brigades and composite divisions
and was supposed to defend Sweden using things like anti-personel mines
and being trained how to survive chemical weapons and nukes.

Unlike the current colonial police, organized in battalions,
and apperently being trained in using shields and sticks.

So things might have changed since my days.

I don't know what the usage of FN-MAG's looks like today, but as early as during the 1990's
swedish troops abroad used the Minimi (and the M2HB as well), weapons that was otherwise
not used by the army at all in those days.

Swedish troops abroad also used wheeled APC's,
when the army back home used
tracked APC's, BV's, trucks and bikes.


A Bit Bitter?
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#44 Olof Larsson

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 1400 PM

A Bit Bitter?


Well, I wouldn't mind having the defence of Finland, but you now the saying:

Sweden is ready to fight to the last finn.



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#45 wallaby bob

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 1820 PM

Well, I wouldn't mind having the defence of Finland, but you now the saying:


OLOF. I'm not quite sure whom to accuse of plagiarism here. I'd always heard the local version here. "England is ready to fight to the last Australian". WB
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#46 Xavier

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 1851 PM

OLOF. I'm not quite sure whom to accuse of plagiarism here. I'd always heard the local version here. "England is ready to fight to the last Australian". WB

there's also France defending to the last Belgian...
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#47 Archie Pellagio

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 2153 PM

Swedish troops abroad also used wheeled APC's,
when the army back home used
tracked APC's, BV's, trucks and bikes.


Sparky is Swedish? :blink:
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#48 chino

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 0817 AM

Well, CLEARLY a medium MG is afire-support weapon, not an assault weapon. It arguably belongs to the platoon/half-platoon’s fire support sub-unit with the assault infantry advancing under its overwatch.

In terms of very close terrain which ash been mentioned, (Jungle, etc.)…once you are close enough that your MG cannot see you, then you are not crossing the sort of open ground/interval that requires the fire support in the first place. At that point, your squad/team-level LMGs take over, surely?


That's a rather narrow view of things.

What if you have a series of objectives?
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#49 Olof Larsson

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 0935 AM

Sparky is Swedish? :blink:


We might have the worlds highest taxes
and plenty of idiots to go around, but we're not that unfortunate.

I was simply noting that our troops abroad have often used different equipment then the army.
Sometimes equipment only used by the navy and/or coastal artillery and/or airforce
and sometimes equipment unique to the troops abroad.

They were the only users of of the XA-series of APC's*
and they used the M2HB and Minimi before the army started to use them.

(*) The armoured brigades used tracked APC's
(the PBV 302 was AFAIK used abroad from Bosnia and forward as well)
and to a lesser extent the 1940's wheeled KP-APC's,
while the infantry used BV's and/or trucks or bikes.
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#50 A2Keltainen

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 1150 AM

while the infantry used BV's and/or trucks or bikes.


Don't forget the civilian tractors and Volvo 240s, both important parts of Swedish cold war army mobility.
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#51 Lampshade111

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 2001 PM

Speaking of MGs does anybody know what the current version of the good old M2 .50 caliber machine gun is? Are they just new builds of the same old design?

I have read about an improved M2E2 .50 caliber machine gun and seen photos of it in testing but nothing besides that.
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#52 hojutsuka

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 0017 AM

OLOF. I'm not quite sure whom to accuse of plagiarism here. I'd always heard the local version here. "England is ready to fight to the last Australian". WB

It doesn't have to be plagiarism, you know. The sayings could have arisen independently.

However, from a chronological standpoint, the Swedes definitely have precedence. Finland was annexed by King Eric IX of Sweden in 1155 approximately, and Finns formed a prominent part of the Swedish army in the Thirty Years War (1618-1648). In 1809 Russia gained Finland and Aland Islands from Sweden by the Treaty of Fredrikshamm and Finland remained part of Russia until the end of World War I when it became an independent republic, so the saying "Sweden is ready to fight to the last Finn." must have been current before 1809.

Compare this to Australia, where the first English settlement was toward the end of the 18th Century. Australia did not have even colonial militia until 1855.

So if there were any plagiarism, the original would have been Swedish.

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#53 chino

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 0114 AM

Speaking of MGs does anybody know what the current version of the good old M2 .50 caliber machine gun is? Are they just new builds of the same old design?

I have read about an improved M2E2 .50 caliber machine gun and seen photos of it in testing but nothing besides that.



We have this nice little weapon called a CIS 50 that has been in service with SAF for about 20 years or more.

Lighter, quick change barrel, dual ammunition feed which means you can have one belt of ball and one belt of SLAP, and switch between the 2 easily.

It is light years ahead of the Browning M2, but surprising, we were unable to sell it to many people. Indonesians did buy some.

Onn AFV it is usually mounted in tandem with the CIS 40 - a 40mm AGL and the combo is called a 40/50.

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#54 Ariete!

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 0406 AM

That's a rather narrow view of things.

What if you have a series of objectives?


Well, the mdm MGs are not immobile. If you have to ove on, you can shift forward your abse of fire, having already dealt with the first (prior) objective. I'm not saying MMGs and LMGs belong to differnet units, just diferent subcomponents of the same infantry platoon.

What's the alternative? MMGs trying to assault forward?


------------------------------------

On a separate issue of the LMGs, any news on the USMC program for a sort of 'lighter' SAW?
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#55 Simon Tan

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 0447 AM

Bumped into FY08 by MRAP along with a raft of other projects only to have the Commandant come out and say that mebbe the Corps is getting too many.

Simon

Edited by Simon Tan, 07 January 2008 - 0448 AM.

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#56 exT70

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 0911 AM

Well, CLEARLY a medium MG is afire-support weapon, not an assault weapon. It arguably belongs to the platoon/half-platoon’s fire support sub-unit with the assault infantry advancing under its overwatch.

In terms of very close terrain which ash been mentioned, (Jungle, etc.)…once you are close enough that your MG cannot see you, then you are not crossing the sort of open ground/interval that requires the fire support in the first place. At that point, your squad/team-level LMGs take over, surely?

Anyone have any experience with the South African MMG (l77 or something like that??). How does it compare to MAG 58 / MG3??
And what about LMGs?? Is it going to be ‘MiniMI forever’?


SS77 (7.62) was introduced in 1990 or 1991 and was in due course withdrawn. Had way too many teething problems and budget dried up due to the end of the war. Problems now sorted and it is being slowly introduced in the SANDF in 7.62 format (to replace the MAG) and is also available as miniSS77 (see photograph below) 5.56 format. The change between 5.56 and 7.62 is a quickchange system, using the same body, but I have not handled it, so cannot comment on the 5.56.
Posted Image
Posted Image
The SS77 is an "improved" and lighter version of the MAG (based on the Mag), so whether it can be considered "new" is an open question.
The rate of replacing the MAG is however quite slow, so we'll have the Mag around for a while yet.
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#57 chino

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 0946 AM

Well, the mdm MGs are not immobile. If you have to ove on, you can shift forward your abse of fire, having already dealt with the first (prior) objective. I'm not saying MMGs and LMGs belong to differnet units, just diferent subcomponents of the same infantry platoon.

What's the alternative? MMGs trying to assault forward?


Nobody is saying a GPMG is immobile, you are.

Nobody is saying assault with a GPMG either.

We seem to misunderstand each other.
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#58 Noble713

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 1108 AM

What are the essential characteristics of an LMG/MMG range and penetration-wise? If one were to rechamber the MG3/FN MAG in an intermediate cartridge like 6.5 Grendel, would you lose too much capability for the weapon to be effective in its role?


I was just musing on unifying the ammo requirements for the platoon with a single cartridge, and reworking the existing LMGs with titanium and other lightweight materials to make them easier to lug around (in addition to the reduced weight of the ammo with something smaller than 7.62 NATO).
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#59 A2Keltainen

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 1317 PM

How big is the difference in weight between a single round of 7.62x54R and a single round of 7.62x39, given normal Soviet ammo?
How much does a single link for a 7.62x54R PKM belt weigh?
Are there any technical reasons that make is hard, or impossible, to make a 7.62x39 version of the PKM?

Since, at least, the FDF is using the PKM in the squad mg role, IMHO a 7.62x39 version of it would make a lot of sense. The 7.62x39 is a perfectly adequate round for squad use, and going to 7.62x39 instead of 7.62x54R would give more rounds for a given weight, and also provide ammo commonality with any 7.62x39 AK-47 type weapons the squad have, which is both more likely and important than ammo commonality with any eventual SVD the squad may have.
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#60 pdoktar

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 1326 PM

How big is the difference in weight between a single round of 7.62x54R and a single round of 7.62x39, given normal Soviet ammo?
How much does a single link for a 7.62x54R PKM belt weigh?
Are there any technical reasons that make is hard, or impossible, to make a 7.62x39 version of the PKM?


7,62x39 258gr 16,7g
7,62x54R 348gr 22,55g

for complete round weight, according to Small Arms of the World.
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