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Msbs-5,56 Program.


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#1 Damian

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 0307 AM

Yesterday some new photos and informations about MSBS were unveiled as well as bullpup variant prototypes were presented and fired.

msbs1.jpg
MSBS-5,56B.

msbs2.jpg
msbs4.jpg
Comparrision of MSBS-5,56 and MSBS-5,56B, both ariants have the same 406mm barrel.

msbs3.jpg
New modified upper and lower for MSBS-5,56.

msbs7.jpg
Here are late prototyps of MSBS-5,56 with first two prootypes of MSBS-5,56B, what is interesting tough, is that MSBS-5,56B prototypes are not complete new builds. These were also a test of modularity, and successfull one as well. These two bullpup prototypes use upper receivers and 80% of components from standard variant. This proves that MSBS can be sucessfully and easily reconfigured from standard to bullpup version and vice versa if only components for such conversion are provided.

And this is not an end of the project, it seems our engineers are very ambitious.

The standard and bullpup variants will have each 4 variants:
Standard rifle
Carbine
Magazine fed machine gun
Marksman rifle

However three new weapons based on MSBS concept are in development, first is just presented automatic shotgun:

msbs6.jpg

Second will be representative rifle for representative battalion of Polish Armed Forces.

And finally third will be belt fed machine gun.

It is also said that when basic 5,56x45mm ammunition variant will be finished, more versions of MSBS for different ammunition types will be developed.

Another weapon system that was presented was new military pistol, however no good photos are avaiable yet, because work with patents were not finished yet.

More you can read below with translator.

Rodzina MSBS-5,56 w czerwcu - Altair Agencja Lotnicza


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#2 BabyOlifant

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 1523 PM

I see they've got the bullpup prototype completed. When I saw them at SHOT last year, they only had a (very fragile) rapid prototyped mockup.


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#3 Tony Williams

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 0209 AM

Thanks for posting this. I saw an official presentation on this system at a conference last year and was very impressed. I look forward to seeing a scaled-up version to take larger calibres!

 

Do you have any firm data on the overall length of the traditional and bullpup versions with the same barrel lengths? The Wiki figures seem a bit suspect.


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#4 Damian

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 0254 AM

@Tony Williams

 

Sorry I do not have such data. What is mostly provided in more reliable sources are barrel lenghts.


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#5 Tony Williams

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 1145 AM

What is says in the Wiki entry is: 

 

 

 

Overall length: 980 mm (39 in) normal, 720 mm (28 in) bullpup, folding stock extended

 

The 11 inch difference between the traditional and bullpup variations is rather more than the usual 8 inches or so, so I was wondering whether the same barrel length was assumed for both.


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#6 BabyOlifant

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 1531 PM

What is says in the Wiki entry is: 

 

 

 

Overall length: 980 mm (39 in) normal, 720 mm (28 in) bullpup, folding stock extended

 

The 11 inch difference between the traditional and bullpup variations is rather more than the usual 8 inches or so, so I was wondering whether the same barrel length was assumed for both.

 

Yeah, it really doesn't look like it's that efficient of a bullpup, does it?


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#7 Damian

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 1601 PM

However people that had opportunity to have a good look with bullpup MSBS, says that it is better balanced, especially when granade launcher is attached.

 

It is very probable that regular troops will adapt standard rifle with buttstock, while vehicle crews and rear echelon troops will receive bullpup, special forces most likely both.

 

It does not create much of logistics problem, both variants share 80% of components and common upper receiver.


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#8 Panzermann

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 1707 PM

Automatic shotgun? Fun but as useful as tits on a fish. But a bull pup in 7,62*51 that actually works, yes please! :)
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#9 Damian

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 1842 PM

I think I wrongly translated, it will most likely be semi-auto shotgun, sorry, nomenclature in Poland is a bit different than english nomenclature and most likely I messed this.

 

It will be usefull addition for law enforcement and some other purposes.

 

In USA Saiga shotgun based on AK is very popular also for law enforcement. Here you have something more modern that also should use some common components with assault rifle, so there are also economy gains here.

 

To be fair, MSBS have a potential to be very popular among NATO countries. Goal is to develop modern assault rifle with AK reliability. And you can choose, a standard variant or bullpup, or both as they are modular, can be converted and have majority of common components.

 

MSBS will also include whole family of weapons, sharing common components, so again economic factor here.

 

Of course other thing are politics and NIH syndrome. ;)

 

BTW:

 

 

There are more videos, with more detailed explanations of designers, but only in Polish, without translation.

 

And below some history of development showing different stages of the project.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlZlHoSy2zQ


Edited by Damian, 24 March 2014 - 1846 PM.

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#10 Panzermann

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 2027 PM

I did not think you meant fully automatic. I understood semi. But in a military context shotguns are mostly used for door breaching and maybe shooting rubber at protesters and such. Not much need for semi automatic loading there. And a pump action is more compact and easier to transport and does not choke on weak loads. And for the police, shootguns seem to be on the way out too and being replaced by rifles, because to really take advantage of the different types of ammuniton it takes much training and discipline for changing loads under stress to have the right type loaded etc. What can a semi auto shotgun do that a carbine cannot? And in Europe Police never was that big into shotguns anyway.


But if I had the money to spare I'd buy one just to freak out other more lets say tradionally minded hunters. :D
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#11 BabyOlifant

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 2116 PM

The shotgun variant certainly looks pump-action.


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#12 Max H

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 2211 PM

The shotgun variant certainly looks pump-action.

 

Possibly a conveniently located charging handle grip?


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#13 BabyOlifant

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 2241 PM

 

The shotgun variant certainly looks pump-action.

 

Possibly a conveniently located charging handle grip?

 

 

Maybe?


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#14 Damian

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 0353 AM

Shotgun variant of MSBS on this graphic is not finished, it probably still lacks many details.


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#15 Tony Williams

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 0404 AM

 

To be fair, MSBS have a potential to be very popular among NATO countries. Goal is to develop modern assault rifle with AK reliability. And you can choose, a standard variant or bullpup, or both as they are modular, can be converted and have majority of common components.

 

MSBS will also include whole family of weapons, sharing common components, so again economic factor here.

 

Of course other thing are politics and NIH syndrome. ;)

 

 

As I understand it, it will be left to each branch of the armed forces to decide whether they want the bullpup or conventional version.

 

This will be a fascinating experiment: the first time any nation has fielded both bullpup and conventional versions of the same gun, allowing for direct comparisons of the pros and cons of each layout without other factors getting in the way.

 

What I'm not certain of is the extent to which the bullpup design will overcome some of the disadvantages of the early weapons of this type:

 

1. Ambidexerity: I know that the gun can be switched over from right to left-hand use, but as I understand it, that is not the kind of operation which you want to carry out in the middle of a battle. The STK SAR-21 and the latest version of the Chinese Type 95 have cartridge case deflectors which throw the spent cases forwards, allowing them to be fired left-handed without the firer getting a face-full of hot brass. This would be a useful feature as an instant battlefield expedient.

 

2. Control convenience: the IWI X95 version of the Tavor has controls which match those of the M16, in terms of fire selector and even the mag release. There is also a very handy bolt release just behind the mag well, where the thumb naturally hits it as a new mag is inserted. Strongly recommended.

 

3. Adjustable length of pull: this could be achieved either by a telescoping stock (which it doesn't seem to have), or by a sliding pistol grip (ditto) or by designing a short stock and having butt spacers which can be added to suit. Not sure if that's feasible with the MSBS. (Various other points about bullpups made here: http://www.quarry.ni...uk/bullpups.htm

 

A larger version of the MSBS, available in 7.62x51 (but obviously adaptable to any cartridge in between the 5.56mm and 7.62mm in size) would be pretty well unique as a military weapon, and I would love to see that.


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#16 Damian

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 0730 AM

 

1. Ambidexerity: I know that the gun can be switched over from right to left-hand use, but as I understand it, that is not the kind of operation which you want to carry out in the middle of a battle. The STK SAR-21 and the latest version of the Chinese Type 95 have cartridge case deflectors which throw the spent cases forwards, allowing them to be fired left-handed without the firer getting a face-full of hot brass. This would be a useful feature as an instant battlefield expedient.

 

MSBS have brass deflectors on both sides (in standard and bullpup versions). In fact you can deinstall ejection port cover (that is placed on the right or left), and have brass deflectors on both sides, the only thing to do is to rotate the bolt, you don't need any tools to do this, just open the gun, rotate the bolt, close the gun and voila.

 

Also charging handle is non reciprocating so there are no issues with it's placement due to common upper.

 

 

2. Control convenience: the IWI X95 version of the Tavor has controls which match those of the M16, in terms of fire selector and even the mag release. There is also a very handy bolt release just behind the mag well, where the thumb naturally hits it as a new mag is inserted. Strongly recommended.

 

Look at videos, I say MSBS have one of the most if not the most ergonomic controls.

 

 

A larger version of the MSBS, available in 7.62x51 (but obviously adaptable to any cartridge in between the 5.56mm and 7.62mm in size) would be pretty well unique as a military weapon, and I would love to see that.

 

We will see how this will be solved. IMHO the best would to have upper that have ejection port large enough for different callibers, while replaced would be only lower (but in common design, with same controls, just magwell for different magazines), bolt group and barrel. IMHO it is possible to do, we will just see what our engineers will design, and they are good.

 

As a side note, our engineers are working on bullpup firearms for a long time. A bit of history below.

 

800px-BIN-01_REMOV.jpg

kbk wz.2002 "Bin" based on kbk wz.1996 "Beryl.

 

800px-Jantar-M_REMOV.jpg

kbk wz.2005 "Jantar" and "Jantar-M" also based on kbk wz.1996 "Beryl.

 

800px-Rifle_Alex.jpg

kbw "Bor (Alex)" manufactured in callibers 7,62x51mm and .338 Lapua Magnum.

 

562px-WKW_Wilk.jpg

wkw "Tor (Wilk)" 12,7x99mm.

 

rt2011-01-014skw01.jpg

SKW-338  for .338 Lapua Magnum.

 

And also there were or are some other developments.

 

800px-Kbkm2003-01_REMOV.jpg

kbkm wz.2003 for 5,56x45mm, equivalent for FN Minimi, but never fielded.

 

i-i12-07-171ukm2.jpg

UKM-2013 a modernized UKM-2000 that is, it is a PKM in NATO standard for 7,62x51mm ammo. ;)

 

12_resize.jpg

kbk wz.1996 "Beryl", there are 3 basic variants used in Polish Army, wz.96A, wz.96B and newest wz.96C. Here on photo we can see above one of the newest variants with new rails version, western style sights, and STANAG magazines adapter (one of several variants I believe), the one below have standard AK style mechanical sights and uses standard mags, here visible are semi transparent Polish made ones. There is also short barrel version called wz.1996 "Mini Beryl" which also exists in various versions, photo of one of the newest below.

 

800px-Mini-Beryl_wz96_PICT0015.JPG

 

kbk wz.1996 "Beryl" is based on kbk wz.1988 "Tantal" which was a 5,54x39mm variant of the AKM.

 

800px-Tantal_REMOV.jpg

kbk wz.1988 "Tantal".


Edited by Damian, 25 March 2014 - 0839 AM.

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#17 Damian

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 0826 AM

There is also performed research and development program for new military pistol that will replace currently used pistols like WIST-94 and P-83 "Wanad" as well as some obsolete pistols that still can be hold in magazines like P-64 "Czak".

 

i-i12-08-93kbk6.jpg

i-i12-08-93kbk5.jpg

New pistol 3d print model.

 

And some machine pistols models for 9mm ammo.

 

Submachine_gun_wz63.jpg

pm wz.1963 "Rak". There were designed various variants, basic one for 9x18mm Makarov, there was also designed but not manufactured variant for 9x19mm Parabellum.

 

Submachine_gun_PM-84.jpg

pm wz.1984 "Glauberyt", there are various more modern variants of this machine pistol. It uses 9x19mm ammo.


Edited by Damian, 25 March 2014 - 0832 AM.

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#18 Panzermann

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 0850 AM

Seeing the UKM-2013 I wonder if it was submitted to the danish trials held a few months ago that selected the M60 E6 in the end? A PK alike machine gun should fit the description of a light weight 7,62 machine gun for squad use imho.
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#19 Sir Rosco

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 1055 AM

I'm thinking the shotgun variant is selectable between semiauto and pump, at least in the conventional configuration.


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#20 Damian

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 1057 AM

 

Seeing the UKM-2013 I wonder if it was submitted to the danish trials held a few months ago that selected the M60 E6 in the end? A PK alike machine gun should fit the description of a light weight 7,62 machine gun for squad use imho.

 

AFAIK no, UKM-2013 was not sended, and there is good reason if I am not mistaken, modernization program for UKM-2000 is not finished yet.

 

Besides UKM-2013 proposal, there is newer UKM-2000M.

 

ukm2000m.jpg

 

You can read about it here, however only in Polish --> http://www.altair.co...w?news_id=12733

 

And here about UKM-2013 --> http://www.altair.co...ew?news_id=8249

 

Also we have some more new weapons.

 

800px-RGP40_MSPO2010_P1010117.JPG

RGP-40 revolver granade launcher, does not mistake it with M32 and similiar designs, it is similiar in apperance but it is a completely separate project.

 

450px-WKM-B-09.jpg

WKM-B, Polish modification for NSV to 12,7x99mm NATO standard with some oter improvements if I am not mistaken.

 

Most of these weapons are designed within our future soldier project codenamed ISW "Tytan".

 

tytan1.jpg

 

Here are... ekhm "prototypes". ;)

 

http://www.altair.co...ew?news_id=8697

 

And more here to read.


Edited by Damian, 25 March 2014 - 1109 AM.

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