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#41 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0309 AM

 

If those figures are correct, it may be a case of having 2 as a token measure so they can go to the ranges with them. There probably wasnt a lot of use for the in a home defence role unless the VDV started landing.

 

Home defence in our context was more about maintaining control of the population in crisis, and guarding establishments against sabotage. Ive read one of the reasons why John Nott was pushing for airmobile forces is that when the rest of BAOR collapsed, we might be able to bring something back to defend the country. Though im not sure an airmobile brigade would have gone very far.

the 81mm were meant for shooting illumination to spot looters  :)

 

:D

 

Im still trying to work out why they gave my father training on the 3.5 inch rocket launcher. Maybe they were frightened someone would hold up a bank.:)


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#42 KV7

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0537 AM

There was a lot of hysterical nonsense written during the Cold War about sleeper cells, leftist uprisings in the event of war or crisis et cetera.

Fair, if my government was trying to start or enter WW3 I would try and stage an uprising if it was at all possible.


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#43 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0741 AM

There is a long standing tradition of solid response to civil disturbance in the UK. See Bristol Riots (1830) and Peterloo Massacre and you will see what I mean.  The fate of the Bourbons weighted heavy on the mind of the British establishment, and its a tradition that has never really quite departed.

 

There is a neat trick in Britain in never quite getting heavy handed until you absolutely need to. Thats mainly what set us apart from continental regimes, in my view at any rate.


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#44 Roman Alymov

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0756 AM

There is a long standing tradition of solid response to civil disturbance in the UK. See Bristol Riots (1830) and Peterloo Massacre and you will see what I mean.  The fate of the Bourbons weighted heavy on the mind of the British establishment, and its a tradition that has never really quite departed.

 

There is a neat trick in Britain in never quite getting heavy handed until you absolutely need to. Thats mainly what set us apart from continental regimes, in my view at any rate.

Interesting to compare to events in Novocherkassk, where shooting only started when rioters started grabbing soldier’s weapons…. Soviet authorities were absolutely not ready to face riots, as according to Soviet ideological doctrine it was impossible event.


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#45 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0806 AM

Yes, but in the Soviet model, anyone whom was a troublemaker would already be in the Gulags. The difference in the UK Model (according to the Wintex exercise, 1975 I think it was) the troublemakers would only be taken into custody in a lead up to WW3. I dont believe we would have had troops on the street patrolling , I think it would have been a case of the Police having the military to call on in case of trouble, which when you think about it is pretty much what happened in Princes Gate or other disturbances, such as London Bridge.

 

Ill be honest, some of this is SWAG. Ive never read anything to talk of the TA in a civil defence context, only what my father was told, and I dont doubt he was right. It fits with a typical British model, intervening hard, but only when there are no other alternatives, only very rarely with military force. In fact, thinking on it, I remember watching 'The War Game' with im once (a fictional documentary of nuclear war) and the scene where they were disposing of the bodies ala Dresden (cremating them in  Cellar) was met with the response 'Yeah, we would have been doing that as well'. 

 

Whats your view on this Chris, am I wildly off base here? Have you heard anything about the TA being used in these roles?


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 27 November 2017 - 0810 AM.

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#46 Roman Alymov

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0831 AM

Yes, but in the Soviet model, anyone whom was a troublemaker would already be in the Gulags. The difference in the UK Model (according to the Wintex exercise, 1975 I think it was) the troublemakers would only be taken into custody in a lead up to WW3.

Actually not – Soviet law enforcement system, following Russian Empire law enforcement system footsteps, was always relatively weak and not able to provide 24\7 policing down to ground roots level, relying more on traditional society checks and balances, elders etc. See Novocherkassk events – rioting workers only collided with law enforcement when it was already large scale riots – before that it was mainly other workers, workshop masters, plant director etc trying to stop them. Modern Russia is super-police state compared to USSR – we got twice more FSB personnel per thousand of population then MGB personnel per thousand of population in 1953; +60% of Ministry of Interior personnel. https://news2.ru/story/276242/

And now we are at about Spain level of number of policemen per head https://ru.wikipedia..._полиции


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#47 Roman Alymov

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0847 AM

P.S. Have to remind here that until 1974 Soviet citizens were noteven obligated to have passports – mostly having different sorts of papers, often just piece of paper without photograph issued by somebody from the middle of nowhere that could be only contacted by mail to find out if he really exist etc. So living on face identity or without proper registration for many reasons – for example hiding from ex-wife – was much wider practice then most Westerners believe.


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#48 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0849 AM

Yes, I think we are talking at cross purposes. I dont mean the ordinary worker who suddenly decided to riot because he was hungry, or the striker in the UK. The Wintex documents were pretty specific, union leaders, strikers, rabblerousers. For example, people like Arthur Scargill, leader of the coal strikes in the 70s and 80s, or a similar fellow (I cant remember his name) who worked in London Docklands (back when it was a port) who called wildcat strikes. You didnt have anyone like that in the Soviet Union. The nearest you had were dissidents, were already watched or under lock and key anyway.

 

The nearest comparison with anyone in the Soviet Bloc would be Lech Walensa. You didnt have any in the USSR.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 27 November 2017 - 0850 AM.

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#49 Roman Alymov

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0856 AM

Yes, I think we are talking at cross purposes. I dont mean the ordinary worker who suddenly decided to riot because he was hungry, or the striker in the UK. The Wintex documents were pretty specific, union leaders, strikers, rabblerousers. For example, people like Arthur Scargill, leader of the coal strikes in the 70s and 80s, or a similar fellow (I cant remember his name) who worked in London Docklands (back when it was a port) who called wildcat strikes. You didnt have anyone like that in the Soviet Union. The nearest you had were dissidents, were already watched or under lock and key anyway.

 

The nearest comparison with anyone in the Soviet Bloc would be Lech Walensa. You didnt have any in the USSR.

Well I am not so sure about Western trade union leaders, as it is often believed they were controlled in informal way (via organized crime etc). And Lech Walensa is way later story – only 5 years after Walensa founding his independent trade union, USSR got Gorbachev on top seat….


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#50 shep854

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0900 AM

Roman, your description of how casual internal security in the USSR was is eye-opening.  It certainly goes contrary to the picture presented here in the US.


Edited by shep854, 27 November 2017 - 0901 AM.

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#51 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0901 AM

As I say, I feel we are talking at crossed purposes. You would have to understand Britain in the 1970s and their fear of revolution, to understand the plans they had in place in a transition to war.

 

This is not the same as what my father was doing in having a post  nuclear strike role. OTOH, its not exactly unrelated to it. Its two sides of the same policy of preventing civil disturbance, albeit in very different circumstances. Looked at from another way, its not that different from what the Army did in London Bridge, albeit with vastly different forces and circumstances.


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#52 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0905 AM

Roman, your description of how casual internal security in the USSR was is eye-opening.  It certainly goes contrary to the picture presented here in the US.

 

I think he is talking about the Militia, which was like the police. That would be the same guys you saw in the movie Gorky Park. The relationship between them and the KGB in the same film is probably not that unrealistic.

 

The actual number of KGB doing patrols was probably fairly small. Im guessing in main part it would have been the border guards?


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#53 Roman Alymov

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0951 AM

 

Roman, your description of how casual internal security in the USSR was is eye-opening.  It certainly goes contrary to the picture presented here in the US.

 

I think he is talking about the Militia, which was like the police. That would be the same guys you saw in the movie Gorky Park. The relationship between them and the KGB in the same film is probably not that unrealistic.

 

The actual number of KGB doing patrols was probably fairly small. Im guessing in main part it would have been the border guards?

 

Note police (“militia” in Soviet terms) and “KGB” are separated in article above and particular time is taken when “police” and “state security” functions were separated for some time (they were united in one ministry for most of time until KGB finally created in 1954). It is long and complicated story of merges and separations – so it is not correct to calculate traffic police girl on the street and professional spy hunter into the same number, despite they were parts of the same ministry. I am not specialist in NKVD\KGB history (probably you could find lots of English-language sources on that, since it is sort of popular), but general idea was the same in USSR as in most traditional societies: lots of low-level policing functions delegated to society itself. I do not remember exact quote, but general idea from one of the articles about changes in policing in USA was “Now you need SWAT team with army weapons to do what was done by train checktaker in 1920th”


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#54 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0958 AM

Tajikistan Highway patrol? :)

 

1280px-GAZ-24_%22Volga%22_police_edition


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#55 JWB

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 1326 PM

 

.....

hiding from ex-wife......

:lol:


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#56 Roman Alymov

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 1430 PM

Tajikistan Highway patrol? :)

 

1280px-GAZ-24_%22Volga%22_police_edition

Why Tajikistan?  Nizhny Novgorod (ex-Gorky), memorial commemorating 72th anniversary of traffic police

http://autotravel-nn...y-volge-gaz-24/

 

This type of memorials is quite popular here

inx960x640.jpg

0_13f7b8_d703f79c_XXL.jpg

62247635.jpg

0_2db48_ebcc79c1_orig.jpg

inx600x400.jpg

%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%

0_10f6a2_306cf46e_orig.jpg

88783285_2.jpg

 

etc - almost every city got one


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#57 alejandro_

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 1451 PM

Cars seem to be in a very good condition. I would expect them to corrode pretty fast as they are quite old, or simply get vandalised.


Edited by alejandro_, 27 November 2017 - 1451 PM.

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#58 bd1

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 1452 PM

 

Roman, your description of how casual internal security in the USSR was is eye-opening.  It certainly goes contrary to the picture presented here in the US.

 

I think he is talking about the Militia, which was like the police. That would be the same guys you saw in the movie Gorky Park. The relationship between them and the KGB in the same film is probably not that unrealistic.

 

The actual number of KGB doing patrols was probably fairly small. Im guessing in main part it would have been the border guards?

 

roman, as usual comfily slides over the fact that society was ´´self-policed´´ by having kgb ´´contact person(s)´´ in every collective. my dad worked in scientific institute - they had one known one, maybe 2 more (they were not sure) (scient. collective size about 100). my high-school estonian language/literature teacher that i revered, turned out to be one etc. 

 

local KGB tried to even infiltrate punk movement, but after couple officers ended up in hospital, due to really heavy alcohol poisoning they kinda backed down  :D


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#59 bd1

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 1455 PM

 

Roman, your description of how casual internal security in the USSR was is eye-opening.  It certainly goes contrary to the picture presented here in the US.

 

I think he is talking about the Militia, which was like the police. That would be the same guys you saw in the movie Gorky Park. The relationship between them and the KGB in the same film is probably not that unrealistic.

 

The actual number of KGB doing patrols was probably fairly small. Im guessing in main part it would have been the border guards?

 

roman, as usual comfily slides over the fact that society was ´´self-policed´´ by having kgb ´´contact person(s)´´ in every collective. my dad worked in scientific institute - they had one known one, maybe 2 more (they were not sure) (scient. collective size about 100). my high-school estonian language/literature teacher that i revered, turned out to be one etc. local kgb bureaus worked with their contacts, agents, snitches. they themselves usually appeared only on more important cases, thus making it more impressive.

local KGB tried to even infiltrate punk movement, but after couple officers ended up in hospital, due to really heavy alcohol poisoning they kinda backed down  :D


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#60 Roman Alymov

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 1530 PM

Roman, your description of how casual internal security in the USSR was is eye-opening.  It certainly goes contrary to the picture presented here in the US.

I'm afraid it is the case not only with USSR


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