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What Was The Nazis' Desired End-State?


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#21 Ken Estes

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 1022 AM

It would be interesting to see what JA war planning was vs the USSR by 1941. The army staff would have continued to update planning, even as the Imperial Council drifted more toward the Southern Plan. The immensity of Mongolia seems to make it a non-starter, and I'd say ditto vs the fortified zones surrounding Vladivostok. The Trans-Siberian RR might have invited a thrust to the NNE, but one still has a tiger by the tail.

 

In short, there is little gain feasible for the JA in the North, but the Southern plan placed primacy on the IJN, which was likely insufferable for the former. The Japanese decision for and conduct of war in 1941 easily rivals that of the Third Reich in coherence.


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#22 JasonJ

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 1041 AM

Going into the world of what ifs, would a seige on Vladivostok eventually enable a capturing of it? Certainly a naval blockade was possible. Cutting off Vladivostok from northern land looks to be possible. Could Vladivostok shake off, say, a year long seige?

Edited by JasonJ, 26 January 2015 - 1042 AM.

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#23 BillB

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 1055 AM

 

...Wansee came about because the Germans failed to take Moscow and were turned back, first time that had happened...

Extermination of Jews in Serbia started in August 1941, in Croatia even earlier (late May-early June). Extermination of Jews in USSR started as soon as cities/villages were taken. While codification in policy might be later exterminations started as soon as Germans occupied countries, and while they were still pretty much winning.

 

Far one, but I think you are conflating mass killing for narrow immediate ends with deliberate extermination aimed at utterly eradicating entire racial groups. AIUI the mass killings of Jews in the east in 1941 was intended to clear the way for other Jews to be moved in from Germany and other German controlled territory who were then to be deported east beyond the Urals and thus out of German controlled territory; thats why you get Gauleiters Greiser and Forster complaining that their ghettos are full and so forth. That plan was blocked by the German failure in front of Moscow and the Madagascar plan was also a non-starter. The Final Solution option only arrived in December 1941 when Hitler ordered the total extermination of the Jews, which led to the Wansee Conference, Operation Reinhard and so on.

 

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#24 BillB

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 1106 AM

 

But was Japanese military doctrine and economy suited for operations in Eurasia against huge modern armies? To my amateur and uninformed eyes, fighting the Soviets did not look at all like an attractive strategic option, even if the IJA had new anti-tank guns and tanks in the works. It did not seem as if the technology of tanks or guns in themselves were the most important part of the equation from the Japanese perspective with regard to fighting the Soviets.

 

The Soviet Union was under a lot of pressure dealing with Germany. Throwing Japan on top might have done her in... if Japan wasn't increasingly getting pressured from the US. An SU invasion sort of assumes no war with the US. Edit: also, I recall that Japan actually did have a developed tank doctrine but hasn't been able to demonstrate much of it with small number of tanks low on fuel on little islands. But anyway yea, logistics was not good.

 

I think you are underplaying the impact of the mauling the Sovs gave the IJA at Lake Khasan in 1938 and more especially at Nomonhan the following year. It's a long time since I looked at it but IIRC the IJA's tanks and armoured doctrine were very badly outclassed went they went head to head with Zhukov's interpretation of Tukhachevsky's Deep Battle doctrine, and the IJA leadership knew it. I think there might be something about it in Alvin Coox's work on Nomonhan, but am away from most of my books at the minute. I know the Sovs stripped a lot of stuff away from the east in late 1941 to fight at Moscow, but I think they left more than enough to administer another kicking if required, and by that time the Japanese had settled on the Southern option. 

 

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#25 JasonJ

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 1118 AM

But was Japanese military doctrine and economy suited for operations in Eurasia against huge modern armies? To my amateur and uninformed eyes, fighting the Soviets did not look at all like an attractive strategic option, even if the IJA had new anti-tank guns and tanks in the works. It did not seem as if the technology of tanks or guns in themselves were the most important part of the equation from the Japanese perspective with regard to fighting the Soviets.

 
The Soviet Union was under a lot of pressure dealing with Germany. Throwing Japan on top might have done her in... if Japan wasn't increasingly getting pressured from the US. An SU invasion sort of assumes no war with the US. Edit: also, I recall that Japan actually did have a developed tank doctrine but hasn't been able to demonstrate much of it with small number of tanks low on fuel on little islands. But anyway yea, logistics was not good.

I think you are underplaying the impact of the mauling the Sovs gave the IJA at Lake Khasan in 1938 and more especially at Nomonhan the following year. It's a long time since I looked at it but IIRC the IJA's tanks and armoured doctrine were very badly outclassed went they went head to head with Zhukov's interpretation of Tukhachevsky's Deep Battle doctrine, and the IJA leadership knew it. I think there might be something about it in Alvin Coox's work on Nomonhan, but am away from most of my books at the minute. I know the Sovs stripped a lot of stuff away from the east in late 1941 to fight at Moscow, but I think they left more than enough to administer another kicking if required, and by that time the Japanese had settled on the Southern option. 
 
BillB

Ok, fair enough :)
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#26 Jabberwocky

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 2155 PM

 

France and Britain were pretty well equipped and prepared they just got the German game plan completly wrong.

 

If they had stuck with sanctions would the Germans have had to worry about anglo-french bombers given the real reluctance the Anglo-French had for making war.?

 

Yes, France and Britain got completely wrong footed (and were totally out-fought) by the Germans in 1939/1940, but well equipped? Hardly.

 

The French in particular were dealing with massive inertial - political, industrial, strategic, technical - that meant that the majority of their armed forces were either equipped with obsolescent materiel or were hamstrung by poor doctrine and training.

 

Aviation is my area of interest, so I'll use that as an example.

 

In the early 1930s, the French aviation industry was well established, relatively modern and had a large enough industrial base that it could potentially be expanded to put the vast amount of modern aircraft that a 1940s style war required.

 

However, mismanagement, underinvestment and political favouritism for certain projects/manufacturers through the 1930s, combined with the disastrous nationalisation in 1936, resulted in an industry that was ill-suited to France's pre-war needs.

 

The French went into war with a bomber force that was almost completely obsolete, almost no ground attack aircraft, a fighter arm equipped with decidedly second rate locally-designed fighters and a second tier US design (and I love the P-36, that's not a slander against it), engines that were underpowered, a C&C system that belonged in the 1920s and only the vaguest concept of combined arms doctrine.

 

If the French and English had been well equipped in the air, there would have been no need for their shopping expeditions to the US in the late 1930s, to get the fighters, bombers and reconnaissance aircraft they needed to fight a modern war.

 

France was aiming have a core 'modern' airforce in place by about the end of 1941, and even that was probably too ambitious given the state its industry was in by early 1940.


Edited by Jabberwocky, 08 February 2015 - 2157 PM.

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#27 Jonathan Chin

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 0425 AM

It would be interesting to see what JA war planning was vs the USSR by 1941. The army staff would have continued to update planning, even as the Imperial Council drifted more toward the Southern Plan. The immensity of Mongolia seems to make it a non-starter, and I'd say ditto vs the fortified zones surrounding Vladivostok. The Trans-Siberian RR might have invited a thrust to the NNE, but one still has a tiger by the tail.

 

Had a beer-infused conversation with a Taiwanese friend who had exited the academia but was previously a specialist in Manchuria between Japanese colonialism and Chinese Civil War. According to him at least some of the original documents from IJA war planning exercises are still extant. His impression from reading the secondary literature is that after Khalkhin Gol, all IJA plans for a Russian War were predicated on the Wehrmacht crushing the Soviets in the West, leaving the IJA to pick off the remains of the Russian Far Eastern Empire, which falls into line with actual policy of not going to war against Russia for Germany.


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#28 alejandro_

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 1752 PM

The army staff would have continued to update planning, even as the Imperial Council drifted more toward the Southern Plan. The immensity of Mongolia seems to make it a non-starter, and I'd say ditto vs the fortified zones surrounding Vladivostok. The Trans-Siberian RR might have invited a thrust to the NNE, but one still has a tiger by the tail.

 

According to him at least some of the original documents from IJA war planning exercises are still extant. His impression from reading the secondary literature is that after Khalkhin Gol, all IJA plans for a Russian War were predicated on the Wehrmacht crushing the Soviets in the West, leaving the IJA to pick off the remains of the Russian Far Eastern Empire, which falls into line with actual policy of not going to war against Russia for Germany.

 

 

Very interesting, it would be great to have more details on Japanese planning against the USSR. I have read in several books that another reason for opting out was the situation in China, which absorbed large quantities of Army resources. The Navy would be able to help against European colonies in SE Asia.


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#29 lastdingo

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 1759 PM

So what did Hitler actually see as the best possible outcome for Germany in WW2?

 

* Think of Eastern Europe as Sparta: Germans as the dominating martial race living in fortified cities, Slavs working as (even more) unfree rural and mining workers.

* Germany in its Western borders of 1914.

* USA, France and United Kingdom defeated militarily to 'settle which nation is superior and dominant'.

* Italians are left to dominate the Mediterranean world, albeit not the critical Romanian oil fields. The Italian/Roman Empire would be decidedly junior to the German one due to less natural resources and little industrial capacity.

 

No German language in UK or USA planned, ever. No invasion of UK or USA planned, ever.


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#30 Simon Tan

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 2324 PM

A 20th century Caliphate....Dar-al-Deutsche. Caliph in Berlin, many Emirs reporting to him.


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#31 BansheeOne

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 0441 AM

** Shagazaam! **

 

The article is rather breathless in its conclusions, but the book itself is an interesting find.

 

What Hitler had planned for North America: Canada's archive acquires Nazi research book

 

Once part of Adolf Hitler’s personal library, the 1944 volume reports on the Jewish population of various cities

 
The Canadian Press Updated: January 24, 2019
 

OTTAWA — Canada’s national archive has acquired a rare book it believes could have served as a blueprint for a Nazi purge of Jews in North America.

 

Once part of Adolf Hitler’s personal library, the 1944 volume reports on the Jewish population of various cities as well as key organizations and newspapers serving Canadian and American Jewish communities.

 

The 137-page German-language book, Statistics, Media, and Organizations of Jewry in the United States and Canada, was compiled by researcher Heinz Kloss, who did field work in the U.S. in the late 1930s.

 

The research was carried out for the Nazi regime and hints at what might have happened in North America if the Allies had lost the Second World War, Library and Archives Canada says.

 

The book lists general population figures, as well as the number of Jews, in dozens of Canadian cities large and small, from Vancouver to Glace Bay, N.S. It also details ethnic backgrounds and the languages people spoke.

 

“This information would have been the building blocks to rolling out the Final Solution in Canada, allowing perpetrators of the Holocaust to know what cities to go to to find Jewish people and how many Jews to round up,” said Michael Kent, a curator at Library and Archives Canada.

 

[...]

 

The bookplate features a stylized eagle, swastika and the words Ex Libris Adolf Hitler, indicating it came from the Nazi leader’s collection.

 

An American soldier likely plucked the volume from Hitler’s library at his alpine retreat near Berchtesgaden, as thousands of books were taken as war souvenirs in 1945, Library and Archives says.

 

The Canadian institution bought the book for about $6,000 from a reputable dealer who obtained it as part of a collection owned by a Holocaust survivor, Kent said. The dealer, who trades exclusively in Judaica, was keen to see the volume go to a Jewish institution or another appropriate memory institution.

 

[...]

 

Kent said there is no evidence Kloss visited Canada, but he developed strong ties with American Nazi sympathizers and clearly accessed secondary sources in his research. The book includes the 1931 Census of Canada and the 1937 Report of the Immigration Branch among its Canadian references.

 

The fragile volume, printed on wartime paper, required extensive restoration work before it could be handled and displayed, Kent said.

 

[...]

 

hitler_book_20190123.jpg

 

https://calgaryheral...8c-d2096c87e5d7


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#32 Nobu

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 1323 PM

Would very much like to read more regarding the ongoing planning of the Strike North faction after the defeats in 1939. Lessons learned, and just as importantly, what to expect, from ground combat operations against Russian forces would be invaluable for rematch preparations.

 

The performance of the IJAAF against the Soviet Air Force was generally favorable in 1939. Conditions in 1941 would be drastically more so, both quantitatively, thanks to the addition of IJNAF forces to the available aircraft for battle, and quantitatively, thanks to the Luftwaffe.

 

Logistically, with entire Russian armies being consumed in the far West, the Japanese would potentially be operating much closer to their supply bases in Northeast Asia than Russian forces at the extreme far East and dependent on the vulnerable Trans-Siberian for supply. The rail and rolling stock requirements alone for Russia to supply a 2-front war would potentially be enormous.

 

Regarding Vladivostok, the Japanese High Command could only hope that Russia and Russians would commit every last Siberian division east of Khabarovsk in its defense, as there would be no better place on Earth for battle between Japan and Russia in 1941. 


Edited by Nobu, 27 January 2019 - 1330 PM.

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#33 Murph

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 0656 AM

Both German and Japanese war aims were pretty incoherent, but it would be nice to see some primary source material on the Japanese plans and efforts.


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#34 Ken Estes

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 1313 PM

The widespread records destruction in 1945 by the Japanese makes that a difficult matter.


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#35 Murph

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 0620 AM

The widespread records destruction in 1945 by the Japanese makes that a difficult matter.

That is so true.  I wish more records had survived.


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#36 Panzermann

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 2111 PM

The widespread records destruction in 1945 by the Japanese makes that a difficult matter.

That is so true.  I wish more records had survived.


Or that those involved in the planning had later written about it, but they kept their mouths shut and did not write to keep the secrets.
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#37 Ken Estes

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 0340 AM

Many have argued that it was made necessary to conceal the more active role taken by Hirohito in warmaking than was ever admitted.


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#38 Adam_S

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 0457 AM

The Nazis produced something called Generalplan Ost which was a blueprint for what German lebensraum in the East was going to look like.

 

Broadly, it identified that if the occupied territories were to produce a significant food surplus for export back to Germany then it would be impossible to feed the urban populations of Belarus, Ukraine and Poland. At least 50% of the population of these areas was therefore to be eliminated with starvation being suggested as the easiest method. Some ethnic groups such as the Jews were to be exterminated completely. The final death toll would be approximately 10 times the number of people murdered by the Nazis during WW2. The remaining population were to be kept alive to provide slave labor to their new Germanic overlords.


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