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Video: M27 Critique By Former Marine User


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#21 Panzermann

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 1305 PM

I guess that's why all major militaries are running iron sighted, slick rifles and disposing of their optics and suppressors. These accessories are the force multipliers to the infantry, which for many militaries is a carefully husbanded resource that is difficult to replace.

 

Most have chosen the optic as best return on investment since it gives infantrymen much more reach for detecting, identifying and engaging targets. Optics not only increase reach and precision of fire, they also reduce training burdens. Yes, you do teach iron sight usage but almost all BUIS is worked around a battlesight zero and there really isn't dialing range taught anymore.

 

Suppressors are universal in SF because they offer so many benefits for not so much weight. Eliminating muzzle flash, significantly reducing recoil and audio signature means you are much harder to localize after you start firing. If they can't find you, they cannot take you under effective aimed fire. The resistance to suppressors for the infantry is based on pure ignorance. 

 

Clip on NightVision/Thermals. That forward top rail today is meant for an in-line night vision device that lets you use your optical sight. This means your reticule and zero do not change. A helmet mounted NOD cannot be used to aim with any magnified optic.

 

Any one of these accessories is a decisive advantage over an enemy that does not have it. If every time my infantry engages the enemy and wipes them out without been spotted or localized for return fire, the enemy is going to have a severe morale problem long before he runs out of infantry.

 

biggest thing at the moment is night vision and the training to use it effectively. At night you can run circles around the enemy and he does not even know.

 

 

Also suppressors shine at night or rather do this exactly not. They reduce the signature of the muzzle blast and also make communicaiton within the unit so much easier, when you do not get blinded and deafened by your own or your comrades firearm discharges.


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#22 Panzermann

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 1413 PM

back to the M27 IAR. now also being used as a marksman's rifle under the number M38 DMR (whole system of rifle and accessories):

 

http://soldiersystem...marksman-rifle/

 

 

basically just a M27 with a Leupold TS-30A2 Mark 4 MR/T 2.5-8x36mm and a Harris bipod added to fill the precision shooting role.


Edited by Panzermann, 02 January 2018 - 1415 PM.

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#23 Simon Tan

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 2109 PM

GripPod is not TangoDown. TangoDown AC4 is their bipod
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#24 rmgill

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 2350 PM

Is the Versa pod still around? When I got more familiar with Brens, it occurred to me that the basic design of the Versa pod is taken from the Bren Bipod which was a robust design. 


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#25 JW Collins

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 1716 PM

back to the M27 IAR. now also being used as a marksman's rifle under the number M38 DMR (whole system of rifle and accessories):

 

http://soldiersystem...marksman-rifle/

 

 

basically just a M27 with a Leupold TS-30A2 Mark 4 MR/T 2.5-8x36mm and a Harris bipod added to fill the precision shooting role.

 

Why the hell does that warrant its own designation?


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#26 Simon Tan

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 2147 PM

It justifies another 416 in the squad TO&E. The Corps is not SOCOM flexible. You cannot just slap on whatever bits and pieces you want on your gun as needed.
It also puts cans into the squad. This is warfare at it's finest, against the monolith of bereaucracy.
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#27 Simon Tan

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 2153 PM

That Leupold is old... but it has most of the features desirable in a DMR optic. Namely it isnot a boat anchor and it does not use a 24mm objective. The latter is a total dog's balls at night or in poor light. A larger objective has better light gathering but I don't subscribe to the huge 50 or 56mm objectives that are popular. The sweet spot is 36 to 40mm and there are more of these today than 6 years ago. A piggyback or offset reflex sight is probably a good idea tho.
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#28 Simon Tan

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 2158 PM

The Russian 16man SSO detachment that killed 300+moderate headchoppers all had heavily pimped out small arms. The Jihadis were simply unable to hug them and survive, which meant they could be subjected to CAS. The bump in effectiveness makes a huge difference in being able to take and hold terrain.
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#29 Panzermann

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 1029 AM

 

back to the M27 IAR. now also being used as a marksman's rifle under the number M38 DMR (whole system of rifle and accessories):

 

http://soldiersystem...marksman-rifle/

 

 

basically just a M27 with a Leupold TS-30A2 Mark 4 MR/T 2.5-8x36mm and a Harris bipod added to fill the precision shooting role.

 

Why the hell does that warrant its own designation?

 

 

it is a whole system. rifle plus scope (which  think is a leftover from the Mark 12 rifle) plus accessories. Different alotment of magazines, training alotments etc.

 

Yes, silly, but the Marines are gaming the Pentagon administraion system this way. Adding a free float rail and adjustable stock to an M16 A4 would pretty much do the very same thing, but not possible on the admin side. Also the M27 program has brought many items into the USMC like the new slings or finally having folding rear sights for every rifle without one. Most Marines had to make do with just the ACOG and the front sight post. No rear sight except for the detachable "carry handle". So the y adapt and overcome the muddy administrative processes.


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#30 seahawk

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 1043 AM

Probably they will next come with a version for the Grenadier and slowly make the 416 the standard rifle.


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#31 Panzermann

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 1048 AM

Probably they will next come with a version for the Grenadier and slowly make the 416 the standard rifle.

 

They have already deployed test units completely outfitted with HK416, silencers and other gadgets. I think they are now finding ways to get the desired gear into service.


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#32 shep854

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 1117 AM

I have been wondering why the Marines didn't just upgrade M16s. The bureaucracy really is the frenemy of the trigger-puller.
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#33 shep854

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 1309 PM

Follow-up video by Miles; mags, reliability and employment:
"https://m.youtube.co...h?v=jZ9_rHu772s

Edited by shep854, 04 January 2018 - 1312 PM.

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#34 Kenneth P. Katz

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 1939 PM

Interesting video


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#35 Simon Tan

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 0140 AM

The USMC owns M27 IAR. It shares M4 and M16A4 with Army. Any change requires Army approval.
HK mags were made for L85A2 which had a STANAG magwell and not M16. It was a recurring fix to a simple problem, namely fixing the crap magwell and magazine catch. HK can make a M16 lower, it just wont unless you demand it.
Fibre optic RMR is just daft. 90% sold are simple battery.
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#36 DB

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 1440 PM

On optics, it was interesting to see the Forgotten Weapons chap, with his other hat on, on InRange talking about how much more effective rifle shooting was with a low-power optic. I think that this was in the context of a comparison of German and British WWI "sniper" rifles - actually more along the lines of DMR - where the lower powered scope was a better balanced tool when trading off acquiring a target quickly against hitting it at long (for regular infantry) range.

 

On that note, what sort of fields of view do the favoured low-power optics have nowadays?


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#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 2102 PM

On optics, it was interesting to see the Forgotten Weapons chap, with his other hat on, on InRange talking about how much more effective rifle shooting was with a low-power optic. I think that this was in the context of a comparison of German and British WWI "sniper" rifles - actually more along the lines of DMR - where the lower powered scope was a better balanced tool when trading off acquiring a target quickly against hitting it at long (for regular infantry) range.

 

On that note, what sort of fields of view do the favoured low-power optics have nowadays?

 

It depends what you mean by low powered - the non powered reflex sights have an effectively unlimited FoV, but I guess you mean magnified to some extent. The TA31RCO-M150C 4x32 ACOG used by the US army on the M4 carbine has an FoV of 7 degrees or 36.8ft at 100 yards. The USMC variant has the same FoV. Some ACOGs can be used with both eyes open using the "Bindon Aiming Concept" explained here: http://www.thenewrif...-bac-practical/

 

There is a trend to piggy-back non magnifying reflex sights onto magnifying optics. The British Army has done this recently with both ACOGs and ELCAN Specters. The ELCAN is also 4x and has an FoV of 6.5 degrees.


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#38 Chris Werb

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 2105 PM

PS: an interesting, but highly contextual, article on the M27 by people who appear to know what they're talking about:

 

http://www.thefirear...e-marine-corps/


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#39 Simon Tan

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 2213 PM

Bindon does not work for everyone. Some users have severe difficulty in seeing the reticule superimposed into their field of view. The best results actually come from Green reticules using battery illumination vis fiber optic. FOV is a non issue when using it with both eyes open. The primary concern at CQB distances is bore offset. 

 

Piggybacks require a move to chinweld and actually have more occluded view at 6 o'clock. You don't need a lot of hours behind the optic to notice these things and ACOGs were my default optic for ARs. Trijicon now produces the TA110, a battery illuminated TA11 which has the same more forgiving eye box. Green chevron is a very good choice.


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#40 JW Collins

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 2319 PM

USMC should stop playing games and just adopt a variation of the M27 as the standard rifle/carbine already. Clearly it's what they want.


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