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U.s. Army Ordered To Grow Again


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#21 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 1525 PM

Pray tell, what do we need all this AD force for?  Policing the Empire?

 

Stop recruiting degenerate freaks and chicks, and maybe you'll get healthy young Men willing to do their duty for something larger than themselves again.  Asking them to sacrifice for the benefit of this loathsome shitshow is the worst sort of treachery.  S/F....Ken M  

 

The additional SHORAD units that will comprise the majority of the AD forces being raised are being formed "Because, Drones!" and "Because, Russia!". 


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#22 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 1550 PM

OK, MIC payoff then.  S/F...Ken M


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#23 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 1854 PM

Pray tell, what do we need all this AD force for?  Policing the Empire?

 

 

Unfortunately, the current incumbent peer threats didn't get the memo from the Air Force declaring their ownership of the sky.


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#24 Simon Tan

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 2342 PM

Southern Buffer and Control Zone.


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#25 lastdingo

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 1542 PM

The tests with AIM-9 fired off refurbished Avenger were actually quite reasonable compared to many (V)ShoRAD efforts world-wide. Most of them are too short-ranged. I doubt that significant quantities of AIM-9X would be available for army AD, though. AIM-9M past initial shelf life make more sense.

 

AD against drones appears to be in a brainstorming phase. Lots of efforts look ridiculous, impractical and even delusional to me. The main drone threat will soon be really tiny ones, and you will need ubiquitous systems with super short reaction times and not much range against them. My bet is on RCWS with additional sensors for 360° 24/7 surveillance.


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#26 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 0323 AM

The tests with AIM-9 fired off refurbished Avenger were actually quite reasonable compared to many (V)ShoRAD efforts world-wide. Most of them are too short-ranged. I doubt that significant quantities of AIM-9X would be available for army AD, though. AIM-9M past initial shelf life make more sense.

 

AD against drones appears to be in a brainstorming phase. Lots of efforts look ridiculous, impractical and even delusional to me. The main drone threat will soon be really tiny ones, and you will need ubiquitous systems with super short reaction times and not much range against them. My bet is on RCWS with additional sensors for 360° 24/7 surveillance.


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#27 DB

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 1944 PM

Effective range against drones?
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#28 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 0255 AM

Well we are only talking about small drones, the kind you might have been able to buy in Maplin's. Those are going to be cheap and ever present. So the only thing you can really do to combat that kind of  continual threat, is give the infantry squad (or at the very least, the Company) a weapon that can engage them. Issue enough of them, say one combat shotgun per squad, you are going to achieve a kind of saturation thats going to make it difficult for them to operate close. Which is in itself an achievement. Sure, you cant stop them operating a kilometre or 2 away, but  they are going to be limited to what they see at that range.

 

Anything more than a shotgun, you are going to be weighing down units with a lot of kit. I cant see it being viable to use manpads against them. Ditto towed AA guns. Lasers might work on the sensors, but they arent going to bring them down, and they just fit a new sensor pack to it.  Shotguns might be a minimal capability, but it is a capability. And will have to suffice till someone develops combat drones to do a better job.

 

There perhaps are other options, but I cant see anything that is cheap enough and provides enough saturation on the front line to be viable.


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#29 lastdingo

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1012 AM

I wrote about combat shotguns vs. drones about a decade ago. Yes, it's an option, as are kind-of-moskito nets for bivouac and even indoors.

But small arms incl. shotguns won't be effective against tiny drones past 10...60 m, depending on tpye and behaviour of drone.

 

Drones with 500 gram warhead are going to be too fast and too silent to be dealt with by small arms. You need proper 360° 24/7 searching sensors that do not depend on acoustics against those, and the associated weapon should be effective from 10...500 m IMO. This fits to modified RCWS.


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#30 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1026 AM

No it wont be effective at longer range. The best you can hope for is keep them at longer range and degrade the information they can provide. After all, the Russians have been experimenting with using drones for elint. The further you can get the buggers to stand off, the better.

 

Sadly, short of plasma Rifles in the 40 megawat range, or 23mm AA guns down to the company level, I dont think there is much else that can be done. Sniper rifles maybe, but that is some very small target, and it is moving. There are systems you can bolt onto rifles that will provide a firing solution like a tank FC, but that is going to be expensive, and probably wont be a damn bit of good against a skilled operator whom jinks every so often.

 

Ultimately the more the squad or the company carries, the slower its going to be to operate. Not a problem with Mech Infantry, but its going to be an issue with Light Infantry.


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#31 KV7

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1041 AM

Make a flechette round with VTF and suitable AAA tripod for Carl Gustav/SPG 9 etc.


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#32 seahawk

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1106 AM

In the end it would be something like a Gepard AAA vehicle or we might see the old towed AA guns come back.


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#33 JWB

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1205 PM


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#34 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1323 PM

But I think an Army unit taking Falconers into combat is just a LITTLE bit too Game of Thrones. Imho obviously. :)


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#35 Panzermann

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1450 PM

In the end it would be something like a Gepard AAA vehicle or we might see the old towed AA guns come back.

 

Avengers on every other HMMWV. ;)


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#36 lastdingo

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1722 PM

Make a flechette round with VTF and suitable AAA tripod for Carl Gustav/SPG 9 etc.

 

Sure, so infantry shoots with 3 kg rounds at 1 kg drones.

That's about the same as proposing thick concrete boots for infantry.

 

 

In the end it would be something like a Gepard AAA vehicle or we might see the old towed AA guns come back.

 

No, that's not sensible in any way. The Bundeswehr was barely able to afford less than 500 SPAAGs on the height of the Cold War at triple the price of a Leopard per copy.

Such classic SPAAGs are meant to have a radius of action of 2...3 km. They are useless against drones that can fly below treetops, between buildings, linger in ditches or wait on roofs. Moreover, they would provide a horribly insufficient coverage in terrain with short lines of sight.

 

Towed AAA is no better. By the time you've afforded a towing vehicle and the necessary sensors you can just as well deploy them as 4x4 SPAAG. Now shave off the excessive firepower and you end up at my modified RCWS. Now stop thinking of specialised hardware in light of the need to have gazillions of anti-drone systems in order to cope with short lines of sight and you see why the ubiquitous RCWS that are mounted on almost all wheeled and tracked vehicles bigger than small ATVs, "buggies" and motorcycles are the way to go.

 

-------------------

 

Whatr's next? Someone proposing lasers? No, not enough of them would be available. Short lines of sight.

 

What might actually work would be drone wars; lots of drones preying on other drones.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

We did deviate from topic, though.


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#37 Panzermann

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 1809 PM

What might actually work would be drone wars; lots of drones preying on other drones.

 

 

Missiles are suicide drones actually. So shooting a swarm of cheap counter drones into the air is probably the way to go. Or surround yourself with a swarm.

 

 

 

 

And yes we went off course. So, where are all those additional bodies to magically come from?


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#38 KV7

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 0611 AM

 

Make a flechette round with VTF and suitable AAA tripod for Carl Gustav/SPG 9 etc.

 

Sure, so infantry shoots with 3 kg rounds at 1 kg drones.

That's about the same as proposing thick concrete boots for infantry.

 

 

In the end it would be something like a Gepard AAA vehicle or we might see the old towed AA guns come back.

 

No, that's not sensible in any way. The Bundeswehr was barely able to afford less than 500 SPAAGs on the height of the Cold War at triple the price of a Leopard per copy.

Such classic SPAAGs are meant to have a radius of action of 2...3 km. They are useless against drones that can fly below treetops, between buildings, linger in ditches or wait on roofs. Moreover, they would provide a horribly insufficient coverage in terrain with short lines of sight.

 

Towed AAA is no better. By the time you've afforded a towing vehicle and the necessary sensors you can just as well deploy them as 4x4 SPAAG. Now shave off the excessive firepower and you end up at my modified RCWS. Now stop thinking of specialised hardware in light of the need to have gazillions of anti-drone systems in order to cope with short lines of sight and you see why the ubiquitous RCWS that are mounted on almost all wheeled and tracked vehicles bigger than small ATVs, "buggies" and motorcycles are the way to go.

 

-------------------

 

Whatr's next? Someone proposing lasers? No, not enough of them would be available. Short lines of sight.

 

What might actually work would be drone wars; lots of drones preying on other drones.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

We did deviate from topic, though.

 

My solution works for foot infantry, and you also get a round that is useful for general support. I agree with your solution for mechanised and motorised infantry. Though just adding an AHEAD type capability to IFV would seem sensible as well.


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#39 Chris Werb

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 1550 PM

There aren't enough vehicles fitted with RCWS which are actually pretty expensive themselves - what percentage of armoured vehicles in the Bundeswehr or British Army actually have them fitted now? You also have the problem of whatever you shoot from the RCWS potentially hitting friendlies etc., quite possibly over a mile away if you are shooting bullets, so you are going to have to constantly reevaluate what constitutes a safe arc. The enemy can also overwhelm any such defence by simply employing multiple drones approaching from multiple axes. The drones can be vastly cheaper than the RCWS, let alone the RCWS and the vehicle + crew that it is mounted on. Then again, even allowing for massive deployment of RCWS on all A vehicles, is there even going to be an armoured vehicle present at the target the drones are going after?


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#40 sunday

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 1610 PM

 

What might actually work would be drone wars; lots of drones preying on other drones.

 

 

Missiles are suicide drones actually. So shooting a swarm of cheap counter drones into the air is probably the way to go. Or surround yourself with a swarm.

 

 

 

 

And yes we went off course. So, where are all those additional bodies to magically come from?

 

 

Drone swarms, did you say?

 


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