Jump to content


Photo

The Fort Report On The Fitzgerald Collision


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#21 Special-K

Special-K

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 755 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western New York State, USA
  • Interests:All things military, Shooting, Cycling, Hiking and Camping.

Posted 17 January 2019 - 1456 PM

Bottles of urine mean they dont have enough staff for wasroom breaks. So much vital equipment broken means insufficient spare parts. These are money issues. Combine that with obvious personnel and training issues and overtasking and we get accidents waiting to happen.

 

 

Regarding 'training issues', I wonder if the 'training' that was conducted was the 'training' they needed.  By that, I mean how much Consideration of Others, gay/trans acceptance, Sexual Harassment, and other BS PC feelgood training did they get - and how much 'real world' training had to be put on the back burner as a result.  
 

I deal with that in my police department.  Despite very limited training time and budget, we are mandated by the state and the lawyers to conduct the same bullshit training every year - training that is both entirely useless and keeps us from conducting training that could actually be useful.  

 

 

 

-K


  • 0

#22 rmgill

rmgill

    Strap-hanger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,211 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:33.8369/-84.2675
  • Interests:WWII Armor, Ferrets, Dingos, Humbers, etc...

Posted 17 January 2019 - 2222 PM

The impression I get from a few sources is that the lack of Surface Warfare Officer's school is a MAJOR issue.

The officers not knowing basic rules of the road for sea is a big indicator that officers aren't being trained sufficiently, and if they can't do their job and are busy all the time learning their job or next job, then they're not able to supervise their crew or do their officerly tasks.

Issues like this are like those you see in police departments (or anywhere really), evidence of lack of leadership or competence among the leadership.
  • 0

#23 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 18 January 2019 - 0236 AM

SWO School is closed?


Edited by Ken Estes, 18 January 2019 - 0955 AM.

  • 0

#24 Corinthian

Corinthian

    Stone Age Bitter Delusional Retard

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peek-a-boo, I'm behind you.
  • Interests:Wholesome stuff.

Posted 18 January 2019 - 0250 AM

The only bright thing in that incident is that this shit show occured in peace time. Imagine such a crew running that ship with that level of discipline and readiness complete with broken equipment and then world war 3 happens with a near-peer fleet. The ship wouldn't stand a chance against a missile strike aimed at it.


Edited by Corinthian, 18 January 2019 - 0251 AM.

  • 0

#25 Corinthian

Corinthian

    Stone Age Bitter Delusional Retard

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peek-a-boo, I'm behind you.
  • Interests:Wholesome stuff.

Posted 18 January 2019 - 0253 AM

Even the worst units I heard about (and was in) while in the Army never came close to the levels that crew were apparently at.  So... how widespread is this?  Is it realistic that one ship can be an outlier and get that bad while the rest of the fleet is fine?  Or are there systemic cultural issues that manifested themselves in the worst possible way onboard the Fitzgerald that are widespread to a lesser degree across the Navy?  As someone who doesn't follow the Navy much how worrying should it be for the state of the Navy after reading this?

 

Something I both would like and not like to know. Imagine if this was more than just an isolated incident. Considering the number of USN skippers having issues lately, I wonder if the truth is more depressing.... If so, the USN is fucked if it goes to war with a near-peer enemy....


  • 0

#26 Corinthian

Corinthian

    Stone Age Bitter Delusional Retard

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peek-a-boo, I'm behind you.
  • Interests:Wholesome stuff.

Posted 18 January 2019 - 0254 AM

Bottles of urine mean they dont have enough staff for wasroom breaks. So much vital equipment broken means insufficient spare parts. These are money issues. Combine that with obvious personnel and training issues and overtasking and we get accidents waiting to happen.

 

Consider the budget of the US military, it's a crime to have such a ship with broken stuff. Awful leadership leads to much rot.


  • 0

#27 Corinthian

Corinthian

    Stone Age Bitter Delusional Retard

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peek-a-boo, I'm behind you.
  • Interests:Wholesome stuff.

Posted 18 January 2019 - 0256 AM

Its good its all come out. Now they can get busy with putting it right.

 

If.

 

You're such an optimist.


  • 0

#28 DKTanker

DKTanker

    1strdhit

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 18 January 2019 - 0933 AM

The only bright thing in that incident is that this shit show occured in peace time. Imagine such a crew running that ship with that level of discipline and readiness complete with broken equipment and then world war 3 happens with a near-peer fleet. The ship wouldn't stand a chance against a missile strike aimed at it.

30 years ago Sec'y Navy called for a 48 hour navy wide safety shutdown, complaints of fatigued and under trained crews were rampant.  This sticks in my mind because a tender, I believe in Naples, Italy, transporting crew members to shore for safety training suffered a fatal collision.  


  • 0

#29 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 51,534 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 18 January 2019 - 0948 AM

 

Its good its all come out. Now they can get busy with putting it right.

 

If.

 

You're such an optimist.

 

 

Actually DB is pretty sure im a pessimist, but im happy to take plaudits where I can. :)

 

There was a very good book written by Admiral Zumwalt, whom was CNO under the Nixon Administration. The USN had BIG problems back then. Like people mutinying in expression of support with the Black power movement, and warships that were on their last legs because they were built in WW2. They fixed that, and Im confident they will fix this. If they want to. I cant imagine any Navy, not even the Iranian one, wants to be judged by piss bottles.


  • 0

#30 Nobu

Nobu

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,199 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 January 2019 - 1241 PM

What is a rack of kettlebells doing in the Combat Information Center. Surely not for workout purposes. A damage control application?


  • 0

#31 RETAC21

RETAC21

    A la lealtad y al valor

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,373 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madrid, Spain
  • Interests:Military history in general

Posted 18 January 2019 - 1253 PM

 

The only bright thing in that incident is that this shit show occured in peace time. Imagine such a crew running that ship with that level of discipline and readiness complete with broken equipment and then world war 3 happens with a near-peer fleet. The ship wouldn't stand a chance against a missile strike aimed at it.

30 years ago Sec'y Navy called for a 48 hour navy wide safety shutdown, complaints of fatigued and under trained crews were rampant.  This sticks in my mind because a tender, I believe in Naples, Italy, transporting crew members to shore for safety training suffered a fatal collision.  

 

 

Haifa

 

https://www.nytimes....y-accident.html


  • 0

#32 DKTanker

DKTanker

    1strdhit

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 18 January 2019 - 1312 PM

 

 

The only bright thing in that incident is that this shit show occured in peace time. Imagine such a crew running that ship with that level of discipline and readiness complete with broken equipment and then world war 3 happens with a near-peer fleet. The ship wouldn't stand a chance against a missile strike aimed at it.

30 years ago Sec'y Navy called for a 48 hour navy wide safety shutdown, complaints of fatigued and under trained crews were rampant.  This sticks in my mind because a tender, I believe in Naples, Italy, transporting crew members to shore for safety training suffered a fatal collision.  

 

 

Haifa

 

https://www.nytimes....y-accident.html

 

Different incident.  The one I recall was about the irony of an fatal accident while transporting sailors to a mandatory safety shutdown.


  • 0

#33 rmgill

rmgill

    Strap-hanger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,211 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:33.8369/-84.2675
  • Interests:WWII Armor, Ferrets, Dingos, Humbers, etc...

Posted 19 January 2019 - 2353 PM

 

Different incident.  The one I recall was about the irony of an fatal accident while transporting sailors to a mandatory safety shutdown.

 

Dang, my buddy Don was on a carrier there when that happened (I'm pretty sure). I remember him telling me about being called to the fantail for the mass casualty incident. 


  • 0

#34 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,219 posts
  • Interests:tanks. More tanks. Guns. BIG GUNs!

Posted 22 January 2019 - 0212 AM

Pacflt is still trying to cover up the extent of corruption from Fat Leonard. Malaysia is great at corruption.
  • 0

#35 Kenneth P. Katz

Kenneth P. Katz

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,674 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Longmeadow, MA, United States of America
  • Interests:Miltary history and technology, flying, wargaming

Posted 23 January 2019 - 0701 AM

I have been reading the posted links about this shitshow. The entire chain of command up to the CNO needed to be cleaned out.


  • 0

#36 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 23 January 2019 - 0855 AM

It's amazing that he has survived, when all the other admirals in the chain of command between him and the ship commanders had to go. 

 

Also, nobody is talking about the stress put on the PacFlt when they had to scramble three more carrier battle groups to Korean waters to impress Kim and perhaps some of the US. The lack of personnel, training and spares must have been horrendous given the strict deployment scheduling and workups normal to the peacetime system.


  • 0

#37 DB

DB

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,022 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hertfordshire, England

Posted 23 January 2019 - 0942 AM

Do you think that the Navy should be in a position to do what was asked of them for that Korea show, without it breaking them?

How many years does it take to run a fleet down to the point they can't even pretend to rattle the sabre without pulling a muscle, to over-stretch a poor metaphor.
  • 0

#38 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 23 January 2019 - 1107 AM

The USN is in no better shape than the rest of Defense, thanks to the disastrous lack of purpose in our government. The budget sequestering certainly played havoc with the USN deployment schedule, and the effects upon a dwindling number of very expensive units certainly is showing, naval aviation being a special case in point.


  • 0

#39 Skywalkre

Skywalkre

    Garry F!@#$%g Owen

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,720 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Phoenix, AZ
  • Interests:military history, psychology, gaming (computer, board, simulation, console), sci-fi

Posted 23 January 2019 - 1138 AM

Wasn't it Mattis that was quoted as saying sequestration did more harm to the military than all the years of constant deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan?  Have the services recouped from that episode yet?

 

Speaking of aviation, I was reading an article last year after an Osprey crash off Australia.  They had some insane stat like 40-50% of Naval aviation was grounded at any given time because of lack of spares.  That seems a bit high but I have no context.  Historically what's a normal figure for the amount of a fleet being grounded?  Where are the various aviation elements standing right now as far as readiness given almost two decades of conflict plus sequestration?


Edited by Skywalkre, 23 January 2019 - 1139 AM.

  • 0

#40 DB

DB

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,022 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hertfordshire, England

Posted 23 January 2019 - 1202 PM

There were figures quoted here for the parlous availability of German aircraft cimpared to some others. I suspect that definitive numbers may not alwaysbe available, but the German numbers wre worse than those above.

Not sure that raw availability tells the whole story. You can cherry pick to acertain extent. Is a Typhoon ofgline because it's in line for a sftware upgrade to add a new store configuration really unavailable unless a required mission needs that munition?

On the othe hand, you have the hangar queen that was robbed of spares to keep the rest flying.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users