16669 replies to this topic

[lastdingo]

So my buddy posted this on facebook on an interesting thread. 

At this point NZ should be given time to redress their failings. IF they don't, I'd be fine with Trump making an example of them and ejecting them from the Mutual Defense treaty for non-compliance/non-capability.
 

I had a drawn out discussion on a thread with a Kiwi who didn't understand his New Zealand has gone from being a valuable ally to a millstone, with the US assuming total liability, up to and including a nuclear exchange, for a nation that has degraded their own defense so far that the Massachusetts National Guard has an order of magnitude more combat capability, and more folks actively deployed overseas... as a National Guard. The Philippine Marine Corps could -unassisted by even the Philippine Navy, aside from running the amphibs - could destroy the New Zealand military and force a major landing, almost overnight. While deploying directly from Manila Bay.

New Zealand has literally (and officially - it is their public defense posture statement that they aren't even going to try to defend against anything but the lightest security threat) given up any pretense at actually defending their nation, does not even have air superiority over their own country (because they have NO air to air capability, and a whopping 12 MANPADS... which are in storage). They have a brigade of infantry (one of which is configured as mech, in LAV IIIs), and no ground attack capability beyond doing gun runs with door guns in transport helos.
Their "navy" adds a bit more - a couple of helos that theoretically could be armed with Mavericks, and a total of two frigates that have 8 Sea Sparrows each. Their inshore patrol ships are irrelevant.

While sheltering under the US nuclear umbrella for protection, they refuse to allow nuclear powered USN vessels to even enter their 12 mile limit waters, nor are conventionally powered USN ships permitted in those waters, unless we announce they have no nuclear weapons (which violates long standing US policy on not revealing which ships might have a nuclear weapon of some sort).
Why can they do this? Because they *can*, because they know morons making decisions in DC cannot conceive of the US requiring an ally to even act in good faith in leveling up with the "mutual" part of a mutual defense treaty.

 

Maybe somebody should learn how to use the internet to fight his own ignorance.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ns#ANZUS_Treaty

 

The U.S. does not consider New Zealand to be allied and signalled it's not willing to defend it (and the 2012 Washington declaration didn't change that).

New Zealand simply doesn't feel threatened, and wouldn't be capable of defending itself if it was threatened by either PRC or USA regardless of what effort it mounts anyway.

[R011]

RUMBLE AT THE TOWN HALL MEETING

Schiff's townhall gets interesting:

https://www.latimes....-hall?_amp=true

Behind a pay wall for me.

[Tim Sielbeck]

Same.

[Nobu]

There are indeed lessons to be learned by America and Americans from Japan, but if craftsmanship in mundane things (?) and hentai are all they are able to introspectively admit to being lacking in, I doubt they will ever do so.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

There, I knew we were not that far apart in thinking.

And do you worry about the UK falling into the same position as millstone that New Zealand has become? It was observed on facebook by a friend who's big on defense matters that New Zealand manages to have almost ZERO military defense capability while explicitly excluding US nuclear assets from harboring there (while being defended under the US nuclear umbrella). AT this point, The Philippines' Marines could invade New Zealand and the Kiwi's couldn't stop them.

 

Well we have 2 large aircraft carriers, enough fleet assets to build a battlegroup around them. 4 Nuclear submarines with something like 200 nuclear warheads, and 8 nuclear attack submarines. We have 8 squadrons of what is one of the worlds most adaptable attack aircraft, with missiles that outrange even american ones. Thus far, no I dont. On land, yes, undoubtedly we are in decline. Though I can point to British military history and point to the army always being the poorer of the 3 services.

 

That is before we discuss 5 eyes, which we setup for you, and still are a key player in. Then there are British territories like Diego Garcia, that you find so much of a use from. And so on and so on. This is a big down payment, the only quesiton is, if we did anymore, would anyone notice it? On past experience it seems not.

 

 

 

Do I like the New Zealand position? No. But look at their history. Who have they been invaded by? They have lost more people through earthquakes and volcano's than they will ever lose from a military attack. id like to see them throw in some money to our F35 procurement so they can get pilots on the Queen Elizabeth's. But they wont, and I respect it. You simply cannot bully people into seeing a threat they refuse to see. Ive got that from 20 years of posting on Tanknet.

[Stuart Galbraith]

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Edited by Stuart Galbraith, Today, 03:36 AM.

[JasonJ]

NZ can zerg rush with sheep.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Mass produce Bob Semple. Much win.

[JasonJ]

Cover it up with cotton and people will think its all sheep, until it gets too close, then its too late for the hapless victims. Wolves in disguise.

[Rick]

Great news!  https://www.politico...-circuit-082836