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Elections, Elections, Elections


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#61 rohala

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1722 PM

Austerity my ass.
This link (in Greek) says that the government announced the yearly plan for 140.000 farmers to be given free or nearly freee holidays ! This includes 8 days in a hotel with 3 day excursions for wife and children.

Plus for 300.000 farmers the subsidy for 20 euros for book purchases is also included.
http://www.imerisia....pubid=112854624

This from a country that is on the verge of complete anarchy and will not have enough money to pay salaries by mid June...
austerity my ass, they have just found the goose that lays the golden aggs and they will milk it till death.

These are pretty standard programmes payed for by the farmers' insurance fund (not the state budget) with money they paid.
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#62 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1724 PM

Lots of cheap, easy money just gets people doing stupid shit. Financing should be affordable and accessible but not stupid easy. Yet it is not the lack of financing that is stymieing the petit bourgeoisie but rather the mass of rules, laws and bureaucracy involved in setting up a new business and getting it going. There are too many damned lawyers in politics. They are like hammers...everything needs a new law. No, often less laws are needed. Worse, laws are written to take the place of personal responsibility and ethics.
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#63 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1727 PM

Greek agriculture was one of the major factors in creating the madcap EU Farm Policy. You ended up with farmers in England growing rapeseed because it was so lucrative, ostensibly to support Greek farms, which are not very productive. The Greek economy is dysfunctional. The loans were used to hide the problems. When it ran out, so did the excuses.
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#64 Max H

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1733 PM


Austerity my ass. This link (in Greek) says that the government announced the yearly plan for 140.000 farmers to be given free or nearly freee holidays ! This includes 8 days in a hotel with 3 day excursions for wife and children. Plus for 300.000 farmers the subsidy for 20 euros for book purchases is also included. http://www.imerisia....pubid=112854624 This from a country that is on the verge of complete anarchy and will not have enough money to pay salaries by mid June... austerity my ass, they have just found the goose that lays the golden aggs and they will milk it till death.


Yep. And in my view there still exists an excellent chance of taking down the EU with them.

Time to procure myself some assless chaps and juice up the Turbo interceptor I think. :D


Do you have a newsletter or other publication to which I can subscribe? ^_^


You like the idea of tanknetters in assless chaps? :blink: And you guys call me gay... ;) :P
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#65 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1758 PM

BTW, the USA finally got over the Great Depression with pure Keynesianism. It massively increased government purchasing of manufactured goods, hired many millions of new government employees, & spent huge sums on infrastructure. The economy grew faster than ever before or since. After a few years it started cutting back, but the infrastructure was still there, as was the new productive capacity manufacturers had invested in to enable them to meet government orders, & the economy was permanently lifted to a higher level.


Keynes recommended running budget deficits via tax cuts, whereas Roosevelt & Co. ran relatively balanced budgets but tried stimulus spending and massive central planning. Keynes wrote several letters to Roosevelt saying, in essence, "you're doing it wrong". For example,

http://newdeal.feri....isc/keynes2.htm

Thus as the prime mover in the first stage of the technique of recovery I lay overwhelming emphasis on the increase of national purchasing power resulting from governmental expenditure which is financed by Loans and not by taxing present incomes.


http://www.fee.org/a...eat-depression/

The genesis of the Great Depression lay in the irresponsible monetary and fiscal policies of the U.S. government in the late 1920s and early 1930s. These policies included a litany of political missteps: central bank mismanagement, trade-crushing tariffs, incentive-sapping taxes, mind-numbing controls on production and competition, senseless destruction of crops and cattle and coercive labor laws, to recount just a few. It was not the free market that produced 12 years of agony; rather, it was political bungling on a grand scale.


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#66 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1802 PM

The argument that WWII ended the Depression always smelled fishy to me. WWII brought massive govt spending and intervention of all levels of the economy and industry... A New Deal on steroids. If the New Deal fared as it did, what caused the post war boom? I believe the de-regulation and dismantling of much of what was left of the New Deal that followed the elections of 1946 (often over Truman's veto) had much more to do with it.


Keep in mind that some of America's economic growth in 1939-1941 came from exports to the Allies. I guess we can give FDR partial credit for not blocking those sales, but that commerce came from deficit spending abroad, rather than at home.
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#67 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1805 PM

Ivanhoe....enough with the dissent. The narrative is Wall Street bad, Washington good.
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#68 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1806 PM

You like the idea of tanknetters in assless chaps? :blink: And you guys call me gay... ;) :P


All dystopic future scenarios end up with Tanknetters in assless chaps. Nuclear war, meteorite impact, global pandemic, worldwide economic collapse, extraterrestrial invasion; they all end with assless chaps and blokes driving around in supercharged V-8 coupes. Completely invevitable.
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#69 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1807 PM

Ivanhoe....enough with the dissent. The narrative is Wall Street bad, Washington good.


I thought dissent was patriotic. Or is that too 2007?
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#70 CT96

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1811 PM

Ivanhoe....enough with the dissent. The narrative is Wall Street bad, Washington good.


I thought dissent was patriotic. Or is that too 2007?

2007, 2008, 2009 (right up until noon on 20 Jan, when it suddenly became the lowest form of racism).
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#71 DKTanker

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1819 PM

But I don't think we should start Word War Three just to perk up the economy.

Don't have to. If government spending is the ticket to economic utopia, which many of you are implying, then building a bridge or two to the Sea of Tranquility should see us through the next 50 years or so.
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#72 CT96

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1827 PM


But I don't think we should start Word War Three just to perk up the economy.

Don't have to. If government spending is the ticket to economic utopia, which many of you are implying, then building a bridge or two to the Sea of Tranquility should see us through the next 50 years or so.


Why stop there? Let's build a high-speed rail to Pluto, with stops at Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn while we are at it.
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#73 DKTanker

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1835 PM

Why stop there? Let's build a high-speed rail to Pluto, with stops at Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn while we are at it.

I thought about that. We must think of the children not yet born of the children not yet born. They too will want to spend enormous amounts of money searching for the utopia of Shangri La.
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#74 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 2219 PM

Light rail, mon freres, light rail. According to the local paper, light rail will stop global warming, raise test scores, bring peace and harmony, and lower unemployment to zero.
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#75 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 2338 PM

Light rail? To the Tidewater?????
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#76 Ivanhoe

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 0023 AM

Light rail? To the Tidewater?????


http://en.wikipedia....Tide_Light_Rail

When all is said and done, it will have over half a billion sunk into it. Its proponents claim its current ridership is above the break-even point, but that arithmetic is the kind that gets bankers sent to prison. I saw a calculation made where it was shown that it would be cheaper for the taxpayers to put every individual rider in a taxicab paid for by Hampton Roads Transit.

One of the neat things, in the schadenfreude sense, about The Tide is that the cars have a warning bell to alert pedestrians and whatnot. So all day, all night that thing goes clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang-clang down the tracks. Pity the tracks run by some very high dollar urban apartments and condos; or at least, they used to be high dollar...

Now Virginia Beach is debating whether to build it out from Norfolk to the Beach. Everything I've read so far indicates it won't actually make it all the way to the beach itself and all the tourist stuff on Atlantic and Pacific avenues. As usual, they build the things where they can successfully condemn the land, not where people need to go.
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#77 Simon Tan

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 0141 AM

Wow.....how useless. Norfolk does not need a light rail system. It's really too small to warrant something like this. I was impressed by the diesel electric buses that have been running in Lyon for decades. They run the diesel in the burbs and when they come into town, they deploy an overhead boom and connect onto the overhead grid. Pretty damned quiet and entirely emission free. Go outside the city center and its back to diesel. Now if you want to see how to do a integrated transport solution in very old and challenging urban locales, Lyon is a great example. They have tunnels that run under the old city and have massive underground car parks buried under city squares that connect up to the tunnels. Car, bus, light transit. Planned in the 60s, using old tech but works very well.
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#78 Ken Estes

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 0328 AM

Austerity my ass.
This link (in Greek) says that the government announced the yearly plan for 140.000 farmers to be given free or nearly freee holidays ! This includes 8 days in a hotel with 3 day excursions for wife and children.

Plus for 300.000 farmers the subsidy for 20 euros for book purchases is also included.
http://www.imerisia....pubid=112854624

This from a country that is on the verge of complete anarchy and will not have enough money to pay salaries by mid June...
austerity my ass, they have just found the goose that lays the golden aggs and they will milk it till death.


You wouldn't be cherrypicking, eh? The Greeks are hardly an example of anything, incapable of correcting their own situation in midst of a general or global recession, mostly ended, but in need of recovery. Nor will Spain, even Italy, handle things on their own w/o a general EU recovery. The curious moves by the [German] EU Central Bank, first stimulating, then demanding that all toe the line remains to be explained. Merkel probably gets it, especially with the French changing colors and the UK self-crippled.

I am still waiting for somebody to show where austerity worked. Isn't their something in all those phoney blogs and websites that insist that FDR was a failure, ditto the New Deal, Social Security, Keynes and so forth? The 1920-22 bit was not even a blip on the screen of history, too brief to be explained, not that anybody has been interested for almost a century, when then grasped by an increasingly desperate RW.

Edited by Ken Estes, 09 May 2012 - 1613 PM.

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#79 Ken Estes

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 0431 AM

Yes it ought to be a given and was almost abandoned in the US. We are better off today in the US for having thwarted most austerity efforts. They are most seen in the states, particularly those with GOP govt, and the tide of laid off teachers, police, fire and civil service has added much to unemployment and lowered economic activity even further.

Still waiting for that Confidence to show up from this clever austerity program .....
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#80 Mikel2

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 0748 AM

I am still waiting for somebody to show where austerity worked. Isn't their something in all those phoney blogs and websites that insist that FDR was a failure, ditto the New Deal, Social Security, Keynes and so forth? The 1920-22 bit was not even a blip on the screen of history, too brief to be explained, not that anybody has been interested for almost a century, when then grasped by an increasingly desperate RW.



The 1920-21 depression is harldly a blip in history. GDP fell by 24% (!!!!) in a one year period. Comparable to the 1929-1933 period and VASTLY worse than our current malaise. Harding/Coolidge cut taxes and spending dramatically and a few years later unemployment was 1.8%.

I think the reason this has become a "blip in history" is that it doesn't fit the narrative and the most spectacular recovery from a depression in recent US history has been dropped from the history books completely. I don't expect Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman to laud Harding or Coolidge, with their "austerity".
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