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What Gun Is This?


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#1 Redbeard

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 1733 PM

Was at the Panzermuseum in Munster, Germany the other day and saw this gun. Couldn't find any who could tell me what gun it was, but I wiould guess some kind of experimental ATG on a 75mm field gun cariage. Muzzle was covered so I couldn't make a meassurement of caliber, but I would guess around 5cm.

 

Would appear to have been able to achieve an impressive MV and much more suitable for the AT role than field guns. But haven't seen that one before - anyone know more?

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Edited by Redbeard, 15 February 2019 - 1745 PM.

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#2 Redbeard

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 1735 PM

sorry, apparently my attached images doesn't post - well they do know :-)


Edited by Redbeard, 15 February 2019 - 1749 PM.

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#3 DougRichards

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 0312 AM

Well, if it is on a 75/97 carriage, and therefore French, it may be more likely to be  an experimental / trials barrel with a 47mm extension.  Even if somehow approved for service the traverse would not have been really adequate for AT work as after all, captured 75 mm/97 ordnance on the  original mounting was not accepted for service by the Germans as an AT gun (well, some as field artillery / Atlantic wall etc) as it was, but the ordnance was placed on the 5cm carriage.


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#4 Redbeard

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 1405 PM

Well, if it is on a 75/97 carriage, and therefore French, it may be more likely to be  an experimental / trials barrel with a 47mm extension.  Even if somehow approved for service the traverse would not have been really adequate for AT work as after all, captured 75 mm/97 ordnance on the  original mounting was not accepted for service by the Germans as an AT gun (well, some as field artillery / Atlantic wall etc) as it was, but the ordnance was placed on the 5cm carriage.

I don't think it is an extension of the 75mm M1897 as the cradle looks different and breech appear to be of the horizontal sliding wedge type and not a screw as in the 75/97, but there were many field guns in the 75mm range in existence and the idea of putting a high velocity barrel of around 5cm caliber on a 75 mm field gun carriage and breech is indeed very interesting. It is kind of putting a cal 0,243 bullet in a cal 30 cartridge and thus transforming a "semi indirect fire" 308 Win into a flat trajectory 243 Win. :)

 

You are right that the limited traverse would have been a real nuisance in AT work, but at least the higher velocity of the longer barrel would improve it over the original field gun. I think both the French and the US Army however improved the original 75/97 with a split carriage and rubber tyres, and if you next replace the 75 mm medium velocity barrel with the 47mm high velocity I guess you would end with something acceptable as a stop gap AT gun. There wouldn't be much left of the original gun however (breech and recoil mechanism) and a new design produced in reasonable numbers would quickly be cheaper.

 

But at least you could tell the politicians: "No no, we are certainly not building new guns, only recycling some old stuff..."


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#5 Markus Becker

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 1001 AM

Isn't that the 57 mm gun they had at the entry door to the museum? Ex Belgian naval/cost defence gun I guess.
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#6 Redbeard

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 0533 AM

It was first in the exhibit hall, next to a 20 mm FlaK and with no explaining text.


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#7 TonyE

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 0800 AM

Was there a producers mark on the breech block?


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#8 Markus Becker

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 1024 AM

https://i.imgur.com/20sJU1K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/O0XSjuS.jpg

Indeed the gun I was thinking of. It's been a while but I'm sure the markings on the breech were Belgian.
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#9 Redbeard

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 0934 AM

Re Tony E: I looked for producers mark/stamp on breech, barrel and carriage, but didn't find any.

 

Re Markus: That is the gun moved inside. It doesn't look like a coastal gun, but of course it would be able to fire from the coast :-)


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#10 Markus Becker

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 1528 PM

It's a 57 mm gun with a rather long barrel. That has to be a naval 6 pounder, because only naval or coast defence guns had a need for a high MV.
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#11 DougRichards

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 2211 PM

https://i.imgur.com/20sJU1K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/O0XSjuS.jpg

Indeed the gun I was thinking of. It's been a while but I'm sure the markings on the breech were Belgian.

 

Compare the cradle / recoil mechanism with:

 

https://en.wikipedia...Brantford_3.JPG


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#12 Redbeard

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 1629 PM

 

https://i.imgur.com/20sJU1K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/O0XSjuS.jpg

Indeed the gun I was thinking of. It's been a while but I'm sure the markings on the breech were Belgian.

 

Compare the cradle / recoil mechanism with:

 

https://en.wikipedia...Brantford_3.JPG

 

Craddle and recoil mech are definately different altough probably of similar age and construction. The recoil of a high velocity 50-57 mm would be comparable to that of a medium velocity 75mm.

 

The point about only coastal guns needing a high velocity in early 20th century is valid, but the carriage would appear awkward for engaging a fast moving torpedoboat - or tank - if it is a later combination of barrel and carriage for anti-tank use.

 

Perhaps just a test rig for an experimental high velocity gun?

 


Edited by Redbeard, 17 March 2019 - 1630 PM.

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#13 Markus Becker

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 1750 PM

About the carriage. Tanks didn't move fast. They might have removed the gun from a fixed emplacement and put in on something that could take the weight and recoil.
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#14 DougRichards

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 2047 PM

 

 

https://i.imgur.com/20sJU1K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/O0XSjuS.jpg

Indeed the gun I was thinking of. It's been a while but I'm sure the markings on the breech were Belgian.

 

Compare the cradle / recoil mechanism with:

 

https://en.wikipedia...Brantford_3.JPG

 

Craddle and recoil mech are definately different altough probably of similar age and construction. The recoil of a high velocity 50-57 mm would be comparable to that of a medium velocity 75mm.

 

The point about only coastal guns needing a high velocity in early 20th century is valid, but the carriage would appear awkward for engaging a fast moving torpedoboat - or tank - if it is a later combination of barrel and carriage for anti-tank use.

 

Perhaps just a test rig for an experimental high velocity gun?

 

 

 

I was really referring the to square thingey under the barrel with the part sphere on the front, it even has the same cut outs for whatever it is called on either side of that..  Then look at the line of rivets just behind that.

 

I am not saying that the whole mechanism is the same, but it would appear that someone has decided to include with a barrel and breech mechanism onto a 7.7cm FK 16.

 

Perhaps experimental, well, yes, probably. 

 

The rest of the cradle and carriage has come from somewhere else, obviously.

 

Then look at this:

 

150H06_2.jpg

 

Check wheels / tyres, breech handle, traversing (or is it elevation wheel).  Same line of rivets under the barrel. Similar bar behind the beech on the carriage.  The hoop at the muzzle would also seem to be similar.

 

So the original gun noted would seem to be a hybrid test weapon, using the carriage and much of a medium howitzer with a longer and smaller barrel inserted.  This would not be a difficult thing if only used for tests, as the original chamber could be used, perhaps to see just how fast a medium calibre howitzer case and charge could propel something of around 57mm.

 

https://www.jaegerpl.../ARTILLERY6.htm


Edited by DougRichards, 18 March 2019 - 2307 PM.

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