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Torpedoed Tankers

false flag or real?

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#21 BansheeOne

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0508 AM

Pictures of damage on Kokua Courageous. Owner says the crew saw "flying objects" before the (first?) explosion, which might mean there were two separate ways of attack (one by - smallish - missile, one by timed limpet mine).

image-1438617-860_galleryfree-tuyb-14386
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#22 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0516 AM

Im guessing that something that far above the waterline is an ATGM, perhaps fired by a Boghammar. Although all the footage so far has been shit, so its pretty hard to make any determination about what happened.


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#23 Burncycle360

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0527 AM

The USN video of Iranian personnel removing an object, alleged to be an unexploded limpet mine, from the M/T Kokuka Courageous in the period after it was struck by explosions. Given the height above the waterline of the 'limpet mine', it seems these mines could well have been attached from this type of boat previously. Perhaps at night?

 



Well that just raises way more questions than answers

It was mid-day local time when the attacks occurred, why wouldn't they have mentioned small vessels / pirates in the distress call?  Where the heck did talk of torpedos come from?

This vessel is stationary, has the crew already been evacuated here?  If so, there would certainly be other vessels (who responded to the distress call) observing.   Iranian vessels literally pulling alongside and pulling limpet mines?


Edited by Burncycle360, 14 June 2019 - 0531 AM.

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#24 BansheeOne

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0538 AM

AIUI, Kokua Courageous is currently in Iranian waters. A torpedo hit was suggested for the other ship, Front Altair. I'm curious we're hearing nothing about that one, though it may have something to do with the ship that took her crew off putting them ashore in an Iranian port.
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#25 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0540 AM

Ooh. That doesnt sound good.


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#26 KV7

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0545 AM

Also, if it was not Iran behind the attacks, they would want to recover the device. In fact it would be very weird for them to just leave it on the ship, once it was identified. 


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#27 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0643 AM

Kind of wierd to remove a limpet without a dedicated EOD team though I would have thought. Unless they were the ones who put it there, natch.


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#28 KV7

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0650 AM

Kind of wierd to remove a limpet without a dedicated EOD team though I would have thought. Unless they were the ones who put it there, natch.

Right that is a good point.


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#29 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0653 AM

Of course, they might be rather more cavalier about such things. One shout of 'Allah Akbar' and the application of a big hammer :)


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#30 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0722 AM

there aren't a lot of crew members for a ship of this size.  If an individual crewer was walking around just before an explosion there is no telling what they may report when they start replaying it in their mind.

More and more it looks like an Iranian false flag attack against Iran itself which is peculiar to say the least.  It seems like the Iranians may have some rogue elements in their own forces.  The government doesn't gain anything from friction with Japan.

 

What happens next with the interned crew will be an indicator.


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#31 Panzermann

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0739 AM

Of course, they might be rather more cavalier about such things. One shout of 'Allah Akbar' and the application of a big hammer :)

 

 

How do you know they were not trained EOD personnel? Working in one of those michelin-Man suits is not easy and on a moving boat at sea seems impossible to me.

 

 

 

there aren't a lot of crew members for a ship of this size.  If an individual crewer was walking around just before an explosion there is no telling what they may report when they start replaying it in their mind.

More and more it looks like an Iranian false flag attack against Iran itself which is peculiar to say the least.  It seems like the Iranians may have some rogue elements in their own forces.  The government doesn't gain anything from friction with Japan.

 

What happens next with the interned crew will be an indicator.

 

Exactly. these ships have like two dozen crewmen in a three shift rotation. Lots of blind spots around the ship, because there are simply not enough eyes to watch. That is why pirates so easily get near these ships even in bright daylight.


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#32 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0744 AM

 

Of course, they might be rather more cavalier about such things. One shout of 'Allah Akbar' and the application of a big hammer :)

 

 

How do you know they were not trained EOD personnel? Working in one of those michelin-Man suits is not easy and on a moving boat at sea seems impossible to me.

 

 

 

there aren't a lot of crew members for a ship of this size.  If an individual crewer was walking around just before an explosion there is no telling what they may report when they start replaying it in their mind.

More and more it looks like an Iranian false flag attack against Iran itself which is peculiar to say the least.  It seems like the Iranians may have some rogue elements in their own forces.  The government doesn't gain anything from friction with Japan.

 

What happens next with the interned crew will be an indicator.

 

Exactly. these ships have like two dozen crewmen in a three shift rotation. Lots of blind spots around the ship, because there are simply not enough eyes to watch. That is why pirates so easily get near these ships even in bright daylight.

 

 

You wouldnt want a michelin man suit, you would just want someone training in the removal of such weapons on the vessel. How efficient do you think the USN is that they would eod train personnel on hand for such things? So why are crediting the Iranians with being better organized?

 

I grant you, it is possible. Im suggesting that to me at least, it doesnt seem likely. To me, it looks more likely if they had a limpet mine skilled guy, he probably put it there.


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#33 Panzermann

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0752 AM

You wouldnt want a michelin man suit, you would just want someone training in the removal of such weapons on the vessel. How efficient do you think the USN is that they would eod train personnel on hand for such things? So why are crediting the Iranians with being better organized?
 
I grant you, it is possible. Im suggesting that to me at least, it doesnt seem likely. To me, it looks more likely if they had a limpet mine skilled guy, he probably put it there.


Of course. a sailor trained in limpet mine use is probably the only guy they had on hand. If he had even that. But rightout claiming he was not, well, we just do not know. But something had to be done on the spot, they could not let it hang there and maybe explode later.

Edited by Panzermann, 14 June 2019 - 0753 AM.

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#34 Daan

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0821 AM

So they sent a boat full of people, who would surely have perished if the device had gone off during its removal.

But, of course, they knew it would not go off in the first place.

Edited by Daan, 14 June 2019 - 0823 AM.

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#35 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0826 AM

I know the RN didnt ship with EOD personnel as a matter of course. In fact, so hard up for them in the Falklands Campaign were they, they had to borrow them from the Army. Id personally be surprised if that has changed since.

 

Like I say, I find the Iranians being better equipped in this area distinctly fishy. But no, its not conclusive evidence, any more than fitting the limpet mines via Diver was probably an indicator of a Nation State was solid evidence. I should add, .  I dont WANT it to be Iran, because if the stars align, someone will probably have to do something about it. When you keep asking the same questions and getting the same answers, the idea this is a fit up, for me at least, doesnt hold water.

 

Now If it was the French blowing up a Greenpeace ship, I could entirely buy it I might add. :)


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#36 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0846 AM

odds are they really did know it wouldn't go off because the guy taking it down is the guy who forgot to arm it when he put it there in the first place.  They had to take it down no matter the risk involved because if another nation got the device then they may be able to identify the point of origin.


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#37 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0900 AM

Thats precisely what happened with the mines they laid in the straits 3 decades ago. When the US was able to find an Iranian ship laying them, and the mines were all in sequence of one that all but destroyed a US Destroyer, it was a slam dunk to figure out they did it.

 

So I guess they have moved on a little bit from M1898 sea mines of North Korean vintage. Not far though, apparently.


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#38 JasonJ

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0934 AM

I don't know so much about Japan-Iran relations other than that traditionally, they been fairly good. For the recent times, Abe of course makes great efforts to keep good relations with Trump while OTOH Iran doesn't like Trump and no message for Trump and no trust in Trump was stated by Iranian Supreme leader while he was sitting next to Abe. Last time a Japaneses PM visited Iran was in the 1970s, thus before the 1979 revolution. Japanese imports of Iranian oil was around 5% of total oil imports last year but the imports stopped in April. Iran wants the sanctions off before meeting Trump. Iran president Rouhani said Iran should not have and does not have intentions to have and make nukes during Abe's visit. It was said that both sides had a 2.5 hour discussion and hardly any details were given. Around 80% of Japan's energy comes from the ME. Another 8-10% is from Russia. Imports from the US started not long ago. I think the hits on the tankers was probably meant as a warning to Japan. Before heading to Iran, Netanyahu said to Abe in a phone call that pressure on Iran must remain.


Edited by JasonJ, 14 June 2019 - 0943 AM.

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#39 RETAC21

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0958 AM

The attack is conveniently close to Iranian waters and far from most of the traffic:

 

d5ad456d349276cdadd311fef26b3fee.jpg

 

Re Front Altair, it must have been a very small torpedo to go off with no damage showing in the deck, so IMO it's a limpet mine too

 

front-altair-oil-tanker-attacked.jpg

 

Here you can see the hole is above the waterline:

 

tdc573cc_full_article.jpg


Edited by RETAC21, 14 June 2019 - 1000 AM.

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#40 Panzermann

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 1006 AM

I know the RN didnt ship with EOD personnel as a matter of course. In fact, so hard up for them in the Falklands Campaign were they, they had to borrow them from the Army. Id personally be surprised if that has changed since.
 
Like I say, I find the Iranians being better equipped in this area distinctly fishy. But no, its not conclusive evidence, any more than fitting the limpet mines via Diver was probably an indicator of a Nation State was solid evidence. I should add, .  I dont WANT it to be Iran, because if the stars align, someone will probably have to do something about it. When you keep asking the same questions and getting the same answers, the idea this is a fit up, for me at least, doesnt hold water.

 
Difference being: Iran is operating on its hometurf, whereas the RN was 6834 nautical miles from home.

 

edit: damn the forum ate part of that sentence.

 

Now If it was the French blowing up a Greenpeace ship, I could entirely buy it I might add. :)

 

 

Which at the time it happened was not so clear. The truth came out, when the NZ police catched the two french agents a bit later. Otherwise the French Governemnt would still deny it. I am sure.

 

 

 

I still do not see a compelling motive for Iran doing this. Yes they layed mines in the pat, which obviously did not work out too good for them.

 

Okay, could be a rogue element wanting the battle at the end of times or maybe to unseat the current president of iran?  :unsure:


Edited by Panzermann, 14 June 2019 - 1200 PM.

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