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#21 Mikel2

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 1427 PM

And in which way has austerity succeeded?



Look up the depression of 1920. It was the last time in the history of the US when an economy was allowed to reset on its own. And it did so spectacularly. Before the gov't decided it was its job to "fix the economy" (and royally screwed it). Strangely enough, Harding and Coolidge are now as well known as James K. Polk, while FDR is a demi-god.


You expect the effects of decades of careless spending to be cured with very timid cuts in a couple of years? And in the US - When is the austerity going to begin, because I am yet to see any signs of it. Slowing the rate of growth in spending is not austerity.

Edited by Mikel2, 07 May 2012 - 1442 PM.

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#22 Vuk

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 1436 PM

Timid cuts? Unless your in the banking business (that seem to have an almost god given right to bonuses) the cuts are very real at least here in Europe
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#23 Simon Tan

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 1754 PM

The US is discussing the possibility of austerity. 5 billion dollars has been spent on Oxy for the masses to kick the can down the road. What has not happened is a meaningful discussion of a medical services delivery framework that users are responsible for maintaining. The single payer and third party payment models create a lot of overhead. I have lived in a system where individuals are responsible for paying their own medical costs. The government provides a basic level of coverage based around A&E and preventative medicine as well as medical coverage of remote areas. Government medical specialties are generally associated with teaching universities and all doctors have to serve a certain period in government service (which is not as well paid as private practice) to get their credentials.

Health insurance is primarily designed to cover emergencies and not chronic or elective medicine.

One of the main reasons that health care costs are manageable is the direct payment allows practitioners to scale their fees etc. An example of this would be my uncle, a leading oncologist who charges his patients according to their means for his consultations. He has done plenty of pro bono work. He will often shop for meds & services to make it as affordable as possible for the patients on a budget. Sometimes he will even cover some costs out of his own pocket or find sponsor for the patient. It is rare for him not to find someone to do so.

Keeping it personal means much less overheads. He is not alone. Doing the right thing and personal charity has traditionally been the way things are done.
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#24 Mobius

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 1813 PM

Timid cuts? Unless your in the banking business (that seem to have an almost god given right to bonuses) the cuts are very real at least here in Europe

Nonsense. They raised the retirement age from 60 to 62 in France and raised some other taxes. Revenues were up but spending was up year over year. There were no cuts in this severe austerity. The Germans, who seem to be the ones, that are going to be stuck with the bill have a retirement age 5 years higher. I guess the Germans will have to raise their retirement age to 70 to pay for France and the others. The French can change their government but can't change the laws of mathematics.

Edited by Mobius, 07 May 2012 - 1815 PM.

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#25 Jeff

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 1851 PM

The US is discussing the possibility of austerity. 5 billion dollars has been spent on Oxy for the masses to kick the can down the road. What has not happened is a meaningful discussion of a medical services delivery framework that users are responsible for maintaining. The single payer and third party payment models create a lot of overhead. I have lived in a system where individuals are responsible for paying their own medical costs. The government provides a basic level of coverage based around A&E and preventative medicine as well as medical coverage of remote areas. Government medical specialties are generally associated with teaching universities and all doctors have to serve a certain period in government service (which is not as well paid as private practice) to get their credentials.

Health insurance is primarily designed to cover emergencies and not chronic or elective medicine.

One of the main reasons that health care costs are manageable is the direct payment allows practitioners to scale their fees etc. An example of this would be my uncle, a leading oncologist who charges his patients according to their means for his consultations. He has done plenty of pro bono work. He will often shop for meds & services to make it as affordable as possible for the patients on a budget. Sometimes he will even cover some costs out of his own pocket or find sponsor for the patient. It is rare for him not to find someone to do so.

Keeping it personal means much less overheads. He is not alone. Doing the right thing and personal charity has traditionally been the way things are done.


My primary care doc just told me the same thing.
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#26 Typhoid Maxx

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 1856 PM

So between the Neo-Leninsists and the Neo-Reaganists, we could have a neo-Cold War. All you need now is neo-NewCoke. Of course it's a little different with much of NATO in deep economic malaise and social unrest.


NATO as the new Neo WarPac...European Union the Soviet Union...now, if SOMEBODY could do SOMETHING stupid in the Balkans...

.......................................................................................

On a sdeperate note, have not been back home in 3, almost 4 years...

Oy, Sardaukar - fancy a Holiday in Sarajevo?
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#27 Simon Tan

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 1953 PM

Jeff....this is how small town doctors used to work. Those who could paid full whack and the doctor would not turn anyone away since he had the slack to do so. Today, he cannot do so between the govt. mandates and the professional liability insurance. All that is overhead that gets passed on...and it just snowballs.
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#28 Ivanhoe

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 2004 PM

¡Me gusta!


http://www.reuters.c...E84615A20120507

(Reuters) - Mexico's electoral authority apologized to voters on Monday after a sober presidential debate was upstaged by a former Playboy model and her revealing outfit.


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#29 Max H

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 2028 PM

That debate sounds fine to me - it was a close-run contest between two candidates to determine which was best. The vitally important choice was sure to split households and start life-long feuds, as all over mexico there was just one question on everyone's lips - left or right? :P
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#30 Ivanhoe

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 2125 PM

That debate sounds fine to me - it was a close-run contest between two candidates to determine which was best. The vitally important choice was sure to split households and start life-long feuds, as all over mexico there was just one question on everyone's lips - left or right? :P


In Mexican politics, logically the best position is in the center.
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#31 Tzefa

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 0434 AM

Also, Israel may be going to vote soon. The prime minister has called for an early election, possibly as soon as september.

We're not going to have early elections after all, we now have a 'national unity' government with the 'opposition' joining the government coalition effective immediately.

Which is why every res. aluf is talking about Iran.

Guess what that means for Iran now...
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#32 Rick

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 0435 AM

Off to vote in the GOP primary. Going to push the Murdock button over Lugar.
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#33 Sardaukar

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 0538 AM

Oy, Sardaukar - fancy a Holiday in Sarajevo?


About as much as in Brixton or Manchester, thank you... ;)
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#34 Ken Estes

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 0618 AM

Paul Krugman? America's worst economist! The Noble and NYT is proof enough. No mention of steps taken by the government's effort to open up their economies to freedom of employment. Austerity without economic freedom is worthless. You know it takes a judge's order to fire someone in Spain? Yeah, lots of free enterprise there. Then Krugman has the nerve to say the US attempted austerity. HA ha. Warren Buffet said this morning anytime the government spends more than they take in is "stimulus". You can call it austerity, cars for clunkers, investing in green jobs or anti-stimulus but it still is stimulus. The US is spending 8% more than it takes in.and has not stopped for 10 years. Stimulus has failed, not austerity.


Yep, I'll take a Nobel Laureate over the received wisdom around here, most anytime.

I know a painfully small amount about Spain. The 'freedom of employment' you speak of is 'freedom to fire/lay off' so why don't you admit it? We need more unemployment to make things work, right?

The attempted austerity in the US was the congressional shutdown over more spending, claiming that the stimulus was a failure in three months' time, followed by the scortched earth policy by a group more dedicated to bringing down the elected US president than working for the country. Pray tell, how would the US defaulting payments on the national debt have worked? The mere existence of the debt cap voted after a deficit budget fails logic.

The history of 1920 and the 'failure' of Keynes in the 30s noted elsewhere are cooked history.

I am still awaiting the Confidence that is supposed to appear after the austerity and bring back prosperity....anyone?
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#35 Mikel2

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 0625 AM

[The attempted austerity in the US was the congressional shutdown over more spending, claiming that the stimulus was a failure in three months' time, followed by the scortched earth policy by a group more dedicated to bringing down the elected US president than working for the country. Pray tell, how would the US defaulting payments on the national debt have worked? The mere existence of the debt cap voted after a deficit budget fails logic.


In that case, federal spending must have plummeted in that period. Do you care to show some figures to support that "austerity"?

The history of 1920 and the 'failure' of Keynes in the 30s noted elsewhere are cooked history.


Please elaborate about the 1920-21 depression, preferably with supporting data showing the success of Keynes' ideas later in the 30's.


Henry Morgenthau in 1939 appeared to disagree on the "austerity" of the 30's:

"No, gentlemen, we have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong, as far as I am concerned, somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises…"

Edited by Mikel2, 08 May 2012 - 0631 AM.

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#36 Murph

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 0650 AM

Viva Mexican debates! Posted Image


The Mexicans know how to hold a debate! http://guanabee.com/...-fotos-playboy/



http://guanabee.com/...-fotos-playboy/
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#37 TonyE

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 0808 AM

More Mexican debates! B)
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#38 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1003 AM

Rut roh Tzefa, I play some WoT, go to bed and Bibi blindsides everyone and makes a deal with the devil Shaul! Govenrment of unity=traditional precursor to time of troubles. Bibi's election gambit worked. Is there an 'en brera' mood in Israel. If there is, then the strike is on and it will be delivered before November barring some major shift. Barak now wishes he had been less mean to Bibi.
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#39 Mikel2

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1005 AM



They just couldn't handle a month of austerity so they reversed course and headed back the way that brought them to the problems they now have.


You are kidding, right? The austerity doctrine after more than 2 years has already been proven a stark failure, as any student of 1929-39 could predict. The govt cutbacks, adding much to unemployment and lower output and bland consumerism, was supposed somehow to produce Confidence and the return of investors and a growth in the market. How much more do you want to wait?

Confidence is DOA as far as the finance industry is concerned, having already wrecked the train.

The apparent lack of any new tricks will cause either an admission that they were wrong, or a wholesale turnover in European regimes as they seek uncannily to tighten down even more.

Thank our USAian dumb luck that we did not follow this course, as even the Bush II Regime was loathe to deep-six the finance industry, although why Lehman Bros. had to be sacrificed remains a deep mystery.

Mr. Confidence will remain dead & buried until Europe remembers Mr. Keynes. The EU rules - especially for the EuroZone - were designed only for the good times, as in 'housing will never go down.' Time to loosen up!


Austerity Is So Wrong

http://www.thedailyb...s-so-wrong.html


We gave austerity a go, now we have more people unemployed and back in recession again. I dont suggest that Austerity and cutbacks are unnecessary, but it is clear its possible to vastly overdo the right thing.

In the 1930's recession we built bypasses, invested in the railways,built council houses, built the Queen Mary and slowly but surely the economy recovered. Now historians will tell you Government support to the market didnt work. Unfortunately when you look at the history books the fact dont quite seem to bear it out. It did work, and provided infrastructure that proved useful in WW2. And we were out of that depression rather faster than the present one.

Note in 1945 Britain was bankrupt.In that period of austerity we developed the Atomic bomb and a jet bomber force to carry it, put funding into the worlds largest airliner, built the world first jet airliner, nationalized and rebuilt the railways, built council houses, fought Korea, built the national health service and less than 10 years later the country was recovering. And that was a debt we only paid off less than 10 years ago, which suggest getting the economy working now, pay later, is not always the bad approach politiicans would still have you believe.

So now we are still bankrupt, sat twiddling our thumbs, do bugger all but watch t bankers rake in ever larger bonuses and wonder why the economy is hitting the skids. Its not the left or right choice that is at issue here. Its sheer lack of bloody imagination to do anything at all but let the people who caused the recession sort it out. And im not optimistic they have learned a damn thing.

Its not about ideology. Its about pragmatism and the lack thereof.

In more pleasant news, Mexico had its own election, and seem to have taken a more pragmatic approach to its coverage. Or lack thereof.
http://uk.news.yahoo...-022235028.html

Gah, someone beat me to these 2 imporant issues. Damn you Hefner! :)


Stuart,
I don't know the economic history of the UK in the 30's well enough to comment, but in the US, the problem was that there was no recovery. After the implementation of the New Deal, unemployment still ranged from 15 to 20%, all the way to WWII. AFAIK, it was the longest "recovery" from an economic downturn in US history.
But I do agree on following the Mexican model!
Mikel
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#40 rmgill

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 1036 AM



They just couldn't handle a month of austerity so they reversed course and headed back the way that brought them to the problems they now have.


You are kidding, right? The austerity doctrine after more than 2 years has already been proven a stark failure, as any student of 1929-39 could predict. The govt cutbacks, adding much to unemployment and lower output and bland consumerism, was supposed somehow to produce Confidence and the return of investors and a growth in the market. How much more do you want to wait?

Confidence is DOA as far as the finance industry is concerned, having already wrecked the train.

The apparent lack of any new tricks will cause either an admission that they were wrong, or a wholesale turnover in European regimes as they seek uncannily to tighten down even more.

Thank our USAian dumb luck that we did not follow this course, as even the Bush II Regime was loathe to deep-six the finance industry, although why Lehman Bros. had to be sacrificed remains a deep mystery.

Mr. Confidence will remain dead & buried until Europe remembers Mr. Keynes. The EU rules - especially for the EuroZone - were designed only for the good times, as in 'housing will never go down.' Time to loosen up!


Austerity Is So Wrong

http://www.thedailyb...s-so-wrong.html


We gave austerity a go, now we have more people unemployed and back in recession again. I dont suggest that Austerity and cutbacks are unnecessary, but it is clear its possible to vastly overdo the right thing.

In the 1930's recession we built bypasses, invested in the railways,built council houses, built the Queen Mary and slowly but surely the economy recovered. Now historians will tell you Government support to the market didnt work. Unfortunately when you look at the history books the fact dont quite seem to bear it out. It did work, and provided infrastructure that proved useful in WW2. And we were out of that depression rather faster than the present one.

Note in 1945 Britain was bankrupt.In that period of austerity we developed the Atomic bomb and a jet bomber force to carry it, put funding into the worlds largest airliner, built the world first jet airliner, nationalized and rebuilt the railways, built council houses, fought Korea, built the national health service and less than 10 years later the country was recovering. And that was a debt we only paid off less than 10 years ago, which suggest getting the economy working now, pay later, is not always the bad approach politiicans would still have you believe.

So now we are still bankrupt, sat twiddling our thumbs, do bugger all but watch t bankers rake in ever larger bonuses and wonder why the economy is hitting the skids. Its not the left or right choice that is at issue here. Its sheer lack of bloody imagination to do anything at all but let the people who caused the recession sort it out. And im not optimistic they have learned a damn thing.

Its not about ideology. Its about pragmatism and the lack thereof.

In more pleasant news, Mexico had its own election, and seem to have taken a more pragmatic approach to its coverage. Or lack thereof.
http://uk.news.yahoo...-022235028.html

Gah, someone beat me to these 2 imporant issues. Damn you Hefner! :)


How many people are being paid to do nothing? That right there is a drain on an economy because you're levying taxes to pour money down a rat hole.

It's a Safety net not a Hammock.

The more welfare you have and the more public assistance you have is a band-aid on the problem, it does not fix the problem of the needing public assistance. Could Isamard Kingdom Brunel do today what he did in the 1800s? If not, why not?
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