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Arnhem - Best Book By Far!


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#21 BillB

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 1345 PM

 

 

Just got it for my iPad.

Enlarge the font then... :D

 

Seriously, this is a big book and very dense in its detail. I will also warn you that there are occasional typos and syntax errors, which should be expected in such a massive undertaking. About the only thing I decry in it is the limited number of maps and their quality, which I also understand, and the limited number of photos. However, my other Arnhem books have good maps and lots of photos...but badly misunderstand what happened.

 

 

" And General Urquhart sed: "hey sport, stay off them conre drugs for thier most part if you want to know ur breach from ur mussel!"

 

It would have been good if he'd said that while remaining in his HQ at LZ Z instead of haring off all over the place and getting trapped in the attic of No. 14 Zwarteweg...  :)

 

BillB


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#22 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 0325 AM

Did the publishers put in anything about General Gavin being delayed at Nijmegen because his M113's kept breaking down? :)


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#23 Harold Jones

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 0916 AM

Bought the hardcover, hopefully I'll be able to get it signed in '21.


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#24 BillB

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 1845 PM

Did the publishers put in anything about General Gavin being delayed at Nijmegen because his M113's kept breaking down? :)

No, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they had. I did say that Gavin was delayed by Browning sticking his nose into things he didn't understand though...  :)

 

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#25 BillB

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 1846 PM

Bought the hardcover, hopefully I'll be able to get it signed in '21.

How so Harold, are you planning another jaunt over here?  :)

 

BillB


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#26 Harold Jones

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 1035 AM

 

Bought the hardcover, hopefully I'll be able to get it signed in '21.

How so Harold, are you planning another jaunt over here?  :)

 

BillB

 

Yup, Jami wants to see Monkey World, I want to do another Tankfest and we thought we'd start in Scotland this time and work our way south.  Something like arrive Glasgow depart London.


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#27 Corinthian

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 0329 AM

When I get my finances in order, I will order ASAP as well as the D-Day book.


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#28 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 1304 PM

BillB, how do you think the Cornelius Ryan book has held up over the years? Obviously its much more a work of journalism than an academic study.
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#29 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 1327 PM

From what they were saying on the 'We have ways' podcast, Ryan did very few of the interviews himself, he had a team do it for him. Course that in itself does not make it inaccurate, but it's an odd way for a historian to work. Even less a journalist, which I believe was his previous profession.
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#30 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 1604 PM

If you liked Beevor's book I believe that you'll be very pleased with this one.

 

Thanks.  So that's yet another title to add onto the to read list.  :)


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#31 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 1728 PM

Thanks Stuart you have a link for that? Sounds interesting
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#32 BillB

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 1906 PM

 

 

Bought the hardcover, hopefully I'll be able to get it signed in '21.

How so Harold, are you planning another jaunt over here?  :)

 

BillB

 

Yup, Jami wants to see Monkey World, I want to do another Tankfest and we thought we'd start in Scotland this time and work our way south.  Something like arrive Glasgow depart London.

 

Monkey World is good, I expect Jami will not be disappointed. Has it been on the TV on your side of the Pond? I assume Jami will be at Monkey World while you nip up to Bovington next door?  :)

 

Bung me your dates and I'll check that I'll be around with work, am sure we can arrange a hook up. I don't live in Glasgow any more, moved just outside but as I'm married now we can do the couples thing.  :D

 

BillB


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#33 BillB

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 1920 PM

BillB, how do you think the Cornelius Ryan book has held up over the years? Obviously its much more a work of journalism than an academic study.

Personally I think Ryan's work has held up pretty well. There are a few errors but off the top of my head I can't think of anything major and some of that is because it was the first major non-official accounts. As Stuart says he was a journo rather than a historian but on the good side of that, and IIRC he did some archival stuff as well as the invaluable participant interviews.  FWIW I consider it a legitimate & useful source, and it gets cited frequently in my book.  :)

 

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#34 BillB

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 1930 PM

From what they were saying on the 'We have ways' podcast, Ryan did very few of the interviews himself, he had a team do it for him. Course that in itself does not make it inaccurate, but it's an odd way for a historian to work. Even less a journalist, which I believe was his previous profession.

Din't know that, although I'd say it less of a problem than how Beevor did his archival research for Stalingrad. IIRC he was totally reliant on a female Russian assistant to find stuff and tell him what it said as he did not have the language.

 

With ref to historians doing their own research, I've seen folk employ others to help with research, sometimes PhD students studying allied topics, especially if its extensive as it's difficult for one person to do everything. I also suspect it comes down to funding - if they could afford it I bet you'd see a lot more historians employing folk. Not me of course, I'm far to anally retentive for that...  :)

 

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#35 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 0035 AM


BillB, how do you think the Cornelius Ryan book has held up over the years? Obviously its much more a work of journalism than an academic study.

Personally I think Ryan's work has held up pretty well. There are a few errors but off the top of my head I can't think of anything major and some of that is because it was the first major non-official accounts. As Stuart says he was a journo rather than a historian but on the good side of that, and IIRC he did some archival stuff as well as the invaluable participant interviews.  FWIW I consider it a legitimate & useful source, and it gets cited frequently in my book.  :)
 
BillB

Well that makes two books I need to buy. Thanks much!
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#36 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 0128 AM

Just bought it on Kindle, no problems with the font at all. :)
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#37 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 0421 AM

 

From what they were saying on the 'We have ways' podcast, Ryan did very few of the interviews himself, he had a team do it for him. Course that in itself does not make it inaccurate, but it's an odd way for a historian to work. Even less a journalist, which I believe was his previous profession.

Din't know that, although I'd say it less of a problem than how Beevor did his archival research for Stalingrad. IIRC he was totally reliant on a female Russian assistant to find stuff and tell him what it said as he did not have the language.

 

With ref to historians doing their own research, I've seen folk employ others to help with research, sometimes PhD students studying allied topics, especially if its extensive as it's difficult for one person to do everything. I also suspect it comes down to funding - if they could afford it I bet you'd see a lot more historians employing folk. Not me of course, I'm far to anally retentive for that...  :)

 

BillB

 

Yeah, I remember listening to a podcast where even Beevor tacitly admitted it had aspects he was uncomfortable with. For example, he uncovered a document from the Red Army detailing about rapes in Berlin, and his female assistant retorted 'Well, after all, they were Nazi's!'. Which begs the question how much, unwittingly or otherwise, might have been missed by the translator. Nobody really wants to see their forebears in a bad light, and I think those coming from former Soviet Regimes can be particularly adept at such things.

 

I dont know what Ryans health was like, I think he died of Cancer in the end? So if he had a long illness it might explain it.  I dont think there is anything necessarily wrong with it, I just wonder how often aspects were missed because he wasnt there grilling them.  Imagine if he gave Urquhart a hard time about poncing around in an attic for example. :D As said though, I thought it stood up well when I read it about 20 years ago. He had a knack (particularly with Longest day) of seeing a breadth of a military operation from the eyes of the participants that is not always that easy to find.

 

And the Para's seemed to like it too. When I was knee high to a grasshopper, I remember looking around the Para museum at Aldershot and seeing the cover of his book fully illustrated with lights showing the battle for the bridge underway. That was something of an endorsement.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 31 January 2020 - 0427 AM.

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#38 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 1120 AM

From what they were saying on the 'We have ways' podcast, Ryan did very few of the interviews himself, he had a team do it for him. Course that in itself does not make it inaccurate, but it's an odd way for a historian to work. Even less a journalist, which I believe was his previous profession.

Ryan was a pretty well known writer at the time, it was a period when you could actually make money writing books like that, and seriously A Bridge Too Far has like six billion interviews, with people from every side of the battle. I would argue that it worked out ok, and honestly some grunt level researcher employed by Ryan probably had more to lose by making [email protected] up than Ryan himself did.

[edit to add Im not trying to be some fanboy, just saying I think hes in the clear on this one{

Edited by Brian Kennedy, 31 January 2020 - 1122 AM.

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#39 R011

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 1335 PM

Presumably, he gave his assistants many of the questions to ask.
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#40 sunday

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Posted 01 February 2020 - 1010 AM

Finally bought the Normandy one. Should have read it before the I&I in the area. Even reading it now, I find it easy to establish relationships between the facts on the book and all the places we visited.

 

I could not recommend that book more.


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