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Individual 30mm grenade launcher?


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#21 Special-K

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 1809 PM

So how do the AGS-17 and Mk-19 compare?

Where are the advantages and disadvantages to each? What about the 30mm rounds vs the 40mm rounds?




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#22 Guest_JamesG123_*

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 1903 PM

James, I disagree. I've had Marine who hit moving vehicles w/40mm and routinely put 1st rd right on top of the savages. Walking in applies when you don't have to manpack the ammo or you have a sloppy T&E on your Mk 19. Any grenade round, but especially HEDP M433, just doesn't have the bursting radius to be sloppy with aiming.


They also aren't particularly accurate at range. Yeah, you have some guys with a natural feel for the ballistics of a GL, but for the most part, and especally free handed, it takes "fire and adjust" to get onto a target for most people I've seen anywhere but the range and for firing a TRP from a range card (which isn't practiced near as much as it should IMO).
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#23 Corinthian

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 1934 PM

If the Russians want to sell military gear, they need to take a lesson from American defense contractors and use power-chording guitar rock rather than orchestral music. ;)


Ripped from Pirates of the Caribbean. Who here is sick of that soundtrack, please raise your hands.... *I raise my hand*

So... I reckon this is the Russian equivalent to that show 'Future Weapons,' and is the guy a knife-throwing backflipping flamehoop-jumping former Spetznaz guy versus Mack the former SEAL?

Seriously, he fires several rounds in full auto, and all they show are one or two explosions. If they're going to "advertize" its lethality, I want to see all those grenades fired in full auto bursting like a 155mm rolling barrage.

Still would want one at the office.

Edited by TomasCTT, 18 October 2010 - 1935 PM.

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#24 Doug Kibbey

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 1950 PM

Ripped from Pirates of the Caribbean. Who here is sick of that soundtrack, please raise your hands.... *I raise my hand*

So... I reckon this is the Russian equivalent to that show 'Future Weapons,' and is the guy a knife-throwing backflipping flamehoop-jumping former Spetznaz guy versus Mack the former SEAL?

Seriously, he fires several rounds in full auto, and all they show are one or two explosions. If they're going to "advertize" its lethality, I want to see all those grenades fired in full auto bursting like a 155mm rolling barrage.

Still would want one at the office.


A. Me, me. I was pretty sure that was what it was from. <barf at the repetition of that tune>

B. That's because with every firing, the damn front leg of the tripod comes 2-3 inches off the ground. The rounds from the subsequent shots are landing in the next county.

Edited by Doug Kibbey, 18 October 2010 - 1950 PM.

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#25 Tony Williams

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 2111 PM

So how do the AGS-17 and Mk-19 compare?

Where are the advantages and disadvantages to each? What about the 30mm rounds vs the 40mm rounds?

The MK19 is obviously a much heavier, sturdier and more stable device, therefore I would expect a lot more accurate. I have read that the AGS-17's action is somewhat iffy, and that users should first check their life insurance cover...however, it is of course far more portable. The AGS-30 fires the same ammo and is even lighter (17 kg including tripod: MK19 35 kg without tripod).

The pic below, from THIS article on my website, compares various grenade rounds to approximately the same scale:

Posted Image

From left to right: 25x39B XM25; 25x59B XM307/L25; 40x46SR LV; 40x53SR HV; 30x29B VOG-30 (it has a more rounded fuze profile than the VOG-17); 40mm VOG-25 caseless; 35x32SR Chinese HEDP.

The 30x29B VOG-17 as used in the AGS-17+30 has a 280g grenade (32-34g HE) fired at 185 m/s for a max range of 1,700m (the new VOG-30 contains 40g HE and reaches 2,100m).

The 40x53SR HV used in the MK19 has a c.240g grenade containing 32g HE (M430A1 HEDP) fired at 240 m/s for a max range of 2,200m.

So, on paper at least, not a lot to choose in ammo effectiveness (except of course that the 40mm HEDP has an anti-armour as well as anti-personnel effect).
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#26 Marek Tucan

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 0125 AM

My friend preparing for a-stan positively likes AGS-17, OTOH the one with which they trained and which they'll use is mounted on a Landrover, so likely more stable firing platform than a tripod.
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#27 bojan

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 0828 AM

Firing ABG-30 M93 (local somewhat improved AGS-17 clone) is done by first putting sandbags on frontal tripod legs. Even better if you can use tent spikes. That way, it does not jump much and you can get 3 rounds burst within 1-2 meters. Action wise it is quite safe, but original Soviet/Russian ammo is a bit delicate (and forbidden to be used localy, only M93 HE and M94 HEDP were to be used) due the fuse design which lacks some safety functions* so grenade could carry more HE.
*IIRC, it arms at the firing vs 10m for domestic ammo.
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#28 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 0907 AM

They also aren't particularly accurate at range. Yeah, you have some guys with a natural feel for the ballistics of a GL, but for the most part, and especally free handed, it takes "fire and adjust" to get onto a target for most people I've seen anywhere but the range and for firing a TRP from a range card (which isn't practiced near as much as it should IMO).


Maybe. I had one guy put a HEDP on the hood of a moving [email protected](yeah fluke, but fortuitous) and two guys who could put 'em though windows on demand. Yeah it sure helps that snipers carry LRF's and make range cards but they're definately capable of more than most folks demand of them. After we zero'd out in the boondocks, we shot down street lights at ASP ELM from 100-200m away. S/F....Ken M
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#29 Tony Williams

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 1049 AM

Action wise it is quite safe, but original Soviet/Russian ammo is a bit delicate (and forbidden to be used localy, only M93 HE and M94 HEDP were to be used) due the fuse design which lacks some safety functions* so grenade could carry more HE.
*IIRC, it arms at the firing vs 10m for domestic ammo.

Ah yes, that was probably the reason for the safety concern!
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#30 Ivanhoe

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 1208 PM

Maybe. I had one guy put a HEDP on the hood of a moving [email protected](yeah fluke, but fortuitous) and two guys who could put 'em though windows on demand. Yeah it sure helps that snipers carry LRF's and make range cards but they're definately capable of more than most folks demand of them. After we zero'd out in the boondocks, we shot down street lights at ASP ELM from 100-200m away. S/F....Ken M


That gets back to a thread a coupla years ago concerning shoulder fired GLs at squad or fire team level. Since LRFs are now consumer grade and price, and DOD has grudgingly accepted the inevitability of optical rifle sights, its feasible to have a pump action GL with LRFing scope.

To keep costs down and reliability up, here's what I propose. Grenadier puts 0 crosshair on target and presses Range button. Digital display in scope shows range in meters, and also illuminates the closest horizontal "rung" on a ladder reticle, or perhaps brackets the two closest rungs. Release safety, raise reticle to the proper rung, pull trigger, bang. No moving parts, aside from the integral LRF the only real complexity is the holographic or collimating optical element and the sequence of LEDs that illuminate the horizontal reticle rungs.

My thinking is that if the grenadiers have time to lase, twiddle with turrets, and then aim and shoot, then somebody has got time to set up a better weapon than a shoulder-fired GL.
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#31 crazyinsane105

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 1258 PM

The Chinese have a 35 mm individual grenade launcher:

http://www.sinodefen...erved/qlz87.asp


Home > Ground Forces > Weapons >



QLZ87 35mm Automatic Grenade Launcher
QLZ87

The QLZ87 (also known as Type 87) is the 35mm automatic grenade launcher developed by NORINCO in the late 1980s. Designed to provide direct fire support for infantry troops, the Type 87 is the first grenade launcher that has entered service with the PLA as a standard weapon equipment. The weapon was described as “mini infantry artillery” and has been serving with the PLA infantry (including airborne forces and the Marine Corps) at platoon and company level since the mid-1990s.

Programme

The PLA began to study the use of grenade launcher in its infantry units in the 1970s. Reverse-engineering of the U.S. M-79 40mm grenade launcher and the Soviet AGS-17 35mm automatic grenade launcher was carried out in the late 1970s, but these weapons did not enter service. In the mid-1980s, NORINCO introduced the W87 35mm automatic grenade launcher for export market, and the weapon was widely seen as an indication of success in the Chinese indigenous grenade launcher programme. By the late 1980s, NORINCO introduced new improved version of the W87 for the use of the PLA. The weapon entered service with the PLA in the mid-1990s under the designation QLZ87.

The QLZ87 is available in two variants: the standard variant and the tripod-mounted heavy variant. The standard variant with a combat weight of 12kg can be carried and fired by a single soldier and is mainly for the engaging targets within 600m distance. The heavy variant with a combat weight of 20kg is carried by a crew of three and has a longer range (>1,750m). The weapon delivers 25kg HE or HEAT grenades in either single or burst mode, with a sustained rate of fire of 45rds/min.

Compared to the U.S. MK19-3 40mm automatic grenade launcher, the QLZ87 is inferior in range, muzzle velocity, and rate of fire. However, the Chinese 35mm grenade, though lighter than the MK19-3’s 40mm grenade, has better performance in blasting radius (MK19-3: 7m; Type 87: 11m) and armour penetration (MK19-3: 51mm; Type 87: 80mm). Unlike the MK19-3, which can only be fired on tripod, the Type 87 can be carried and fired by a single soldier.

Design

The QLZ87 is a manportable, gas-operated, air-cooled, fully automatic weapon. It fires 35mm HE and HEAT grenades in either single or burst mode. The grenades are fed to the weapon using 6-round (standard variant) or 15-round (heavy variant) cartridge drum. The weapon is equipped with an optical aiming sight. The standard and heavy variants are almost identical in basic designs. The standard variant has a foldable bipod for shooting, while the heavy variant is mounted on a tripod. If necessary, the weapon can also be mounted on vehicles or helicopters. As well as engaging ground targets, the weapon is claimed to be also capable of attacking low-flying airborne targets.

Specifications

Calibre: 35mm
Muzzle velocity: 200m/s
Firing mode: Single, burst
Max range: (standard) 600m; (heavy) 1,750m
Weight: (standard, with scope) 12kg; (heavy, with scope) 20kg
Elevation: (heavy, mounted on tripod) -10~70 degrees
Traverse: 360 degrees
Rate of fire: (sustained) 45 rds/min
Grenade weight: 250g
Ammunition: HE, HEAT
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#32 JohnAbrams21

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 2319 PM

Does anyone know if that company has ever benn able to sell its wares, what did they sell and to who?

Otherwise as long as their claims hold true I think they have some pretty nifty designs out there, although thier thought of shottinh that .50 without a muzzle brake seems proposterous.

For some reason typing out messages on this phone does not allow seperate paragraphs, so ignore that issue please.
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#33 mpopenker

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 0231 AM



Right around the 5:30 mark, the TV guy hauls out what ATB a SAW sized 30mm grenade launcher, presumably using the Sov 30mm high pressure round. This could be a useful thing, anyone know any more about it? S/F....Ken M

This is a purely experimental Russian Baryshev semi-auto GL. 5-round hopper mag on top, uses 30mm VOG-17 rounds. never made it past couple of prototypes.
]Posted Image
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#34 crazyinsane105

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 2313 PM



That's pretty interesting.
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#35 Simon Tan

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 0013 AM

Note the little black puffs in the air. VOG-25P bounding ammo fired from the RG-6 revolver. The barrel does nothing. The round is spun by the cylinder.

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#36 bojan

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 0557 AM

...The barrel does nothing...


"Barrel" is of larger caliber then a grenade and is actually flash hider and adapter for larger grenades - like flesh-bang they fired at the end.

Edited by bojan, 31 January 2011 - 0600 AM.

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#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 0837 AM

Note the little black puffs in the air. VOG-25P bounding ammo fired from the RG-6 revolver. The barrel does nothing. The round is spun by the cylinder.

Simon


I've been watching quite a few videos of contacts in Afghanistan. I'm strictly chairborne, but that looks like just the ticket for the first few seconds of an engagement when you're being lit up from comparatively close by and just need to suppress the hell out the enemy for the few seconds it takes to get the MGs firing. You're probably not going to kill the enemy, but those airbursts and associated frags are sure going to put him off his stroke. Once everyone is down and firing, you could use it for more leisurely aimed fire to cover the manoeuvre of adjacent bricks or sections.
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#38 BansheeOne

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 0711 AM

Exhuming this old thread to ask if anybody knows the mass of the Soviet 30 mm grenade for the silenced BS-1 Tishina/BS-1M Kanareyka UBGL? I suspect it can't just be 275 g warhead of the VOG-17 AGL round, since muzzle velocity from the blank-fired launcher is given as 100-175 m/s depending upon use with 7.62 or 5.45 mm, which is approaching performance from an AGS-17 and would be a bitch to fire from the shoulder ...


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#39 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 1223 PM

Concerning the AGS-17 and AGS-30, there's also the "Balkan" 40mm system which is of a similar design to the former two 30mm AGL's.

 

http://modernfirearm...ers/balkan-eng/

 

I've done a bit of digging around on this weapon system and it quite possibly is already in limited use within the Russian armed forces.  The idea has been kicking around for some time but development has been slow.

 

The Chinese company NORINCO has also developed a rather specialist bit of kit, called QLU-11 firing 35mm grenades (export name LG5 with downgraded sights and using 40mm grenades instead).  They market this as a "sniper grenade launcher".  


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#40 bojan

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 2129 PM

Exhuming this old thread to ask if anybody knows the mass of the Soviet 30 mm grenade for the silenced BS-1 Tishina/BS-1M Kanareyka UBGL? I suspect it can't just be 275 g warhead of the VOG-17 AGL round, since muzzle velocity from the blank-fired launcher is given as 100-175 m/s depending upon use with 7.62 or 5.45 mm, which is approaching performance from an AGS-17 and would be a bitch to fire from the shoulder ...

Grenade looks quite large and but slightly shorter than VOG-17. Body is also made from aluminium vs steel for VOG-17:

bs-1_2.jpg

cache_58614602.jpeg?t=1470237291


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