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Musketry Of 1914....


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#21 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 1539 PM

Interesting survival - where did it come from?


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#22 rmgill

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 1554 PM

I'm not sure. It was demilled and he had an expert welder repair the barrel cuts after getting the appropriate ATF paperwork for the DD. 


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#23 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 1600 PM

I'm not sure. It was demilled and he had an expert welder repair the barrel cuts after getting the appropriate ATF paperwork for the DD. 

 

I'm glad it survived. The only one I've seen in real life was on a Universal Carrier at the Canada museum in Adegem Belgium (the next time you;re in Europe, should you want to see a really nice display of carriers in various configurations, you could do a lot worse than visit). I don't think many countries used them. They had a brief rennaissance in the early-mid 60s in the British Army due to the Borneo confrontation, but were gone soon thereafter. They were used by the Royal Artillery - not infantry - at that time.  i love seeing the effort some of your folks put into reactivating terribly deactivated (sawn up) kit. Some of the results with ATRs etc. are amazing.


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#24 rmgill

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 1608 PM

These relics should live, not sit someplace in a field and rust away or worse become cheap products from south east asia. 


Edited by rmgill, 30 November 2017 - 1608 PM.

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#25 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 1615 PM

These relics should live, not sit someplace in a field and rust away or worse become cheap products from south east asia. 

 

I'll add a caveat to that. Until recently there were two 20mm Hispano breeches sticking out of a field at the angle they entered the earth when one of two Seafires crashed using a photo gunnery range on the other side of the moors from me. The local aviation history group dug them up and they will eventually be put on display in a restored control tower a mile or so from my home, but I can;'t help but think that those relics in particular had more relelevance left where they were. There is a similar site in Malta with two cannon from a Spitfire sticking out of the ground. There is also a museum in Overloon in Holland where a battle took place toward the end of WW2 - lots of fascinating British vehicles like a "Conger" equipped carrier for example, left in situ where they were knocked out. They have been taken indoors now and properly preserved, but they too lost their context  in the process and the site has lost a lot of its poignancy.


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#26 DougRichards

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 0538 AM

Doug the 1914 qualification shoot was 600 yards maximum. They had already realised that 1000, let alone 2000 yards was unrealistic.

 

Understood, but even the Lithgow manufactured SMLE that we 'played with' in 1970-1973 as cadets still had the 2000 yard volley fire sights.

 

The basic point remains: that in 1914 the qualification shoot may have been 600 yards, but the average Tommy would have had more time to train for that range than his equivalent in 1939-1945. 

 

Another interesting point, is that there were many WW1 veterans still doing useful military work 1939-1945.  I have a book on the coastal artillery that defended Sydney 1939-1945, that comments on the local defence of batteries being provided by those veterans:  To the youngsters who manned the 'big guns' they were an object of fun, being given titles like:  'The Old and the Bold", "The Rugged and Buggered" and "The Ruthless and Toothless".  But those young gunners also respected the duty that these men, only in their 40s, provided to the nation.  There is a good chance that these 'oldies' in 1940, would have still shot straighter than their 20 year old comrades in arms.


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#27 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 0620 AM

My Grandfather reportedly told my father that he disdained the TA units that went out from England to France in 1940, which is interesting, because you would figure the TA would have better training than newly formed units.


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#28 Adam_S

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 0651 AM

So how much of this training was abandoned in the face of needing to train up an entire new army in WW1?


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#29 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 0741 AM

They were pretty well trained in WW1, at least at the start. I mean to put it in perspective, the big influx we had in 1914 after the declaration of war didnt really start to arrive till 1915. I dont believe it arrived in anything like full numbers till 1916. There are still the remains of WW1 trench systems on Salisbury plain that attest to it. A recent exacavation shows they went into some pretty remarkable detail with it, including dug outs.

 

Ive read one fictional author (Ford Maddox Ford) claim that by the end of the war the Army had pretty much become little more than a garrison force on the Western Front, but ive not read whether that was a reality, or just an author (whom actually fought there) being overly creative.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 01 December 2017 - 0742 AM.

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#30 Inhapi

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 0815 AM

I think that's a very valid observation Ryan. I really like Bloke on the Range, but I also find some of his videos and the conclusions therein questionable, particularly when he debunks myths that actually do have some truth in them. Ditto Ian on Forgotten weapons to a lesser extent. Awesome videos though. The Canadian guy and his partner(?) who do WW1 small arms videos really are great and I have no similar misgivings about them. I can watch Lindybeige in small doses - the same with Larry Vickers. I love IV8888, Hickock and Paul Harrel.

 

Do you have a link to the channel of the Canadian guy and his partner ?  ? I saw some of his videos and found them very good...

 

Inhapi. 


Edited by Inhapi, 01 December 2017 - 0816 AM.

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#31 Panzermann

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 0824 AM

I think that's a very valid observation Ryan. I really like Bloke on the Range, but I also find some of his videos and the conclusions therein questionable, particularly when he debunks myths that actually do have some truth in them. Ditto Ian on Forgotten weapons to a lesser extent. Awesome videos though. The Canadian guy and his partner(?) who do WW1 small arms videos really are great and I have no similar misgivings about them. I can watch Lindybeige in small doses - the same with Larry Vickers. I love IV8888, Hickock and Paul Harrel.

 
Do you have a link to the channel of the Canadian guy and his partner ?  ? I saw some of his videos and found them very good...
 
Inhapi.


you mean britishmuzzleloaders?

for your perusal: https://www.youtube....shmuzzleloaders


edit: another good black powder (mostly) channel is cap&ball https://www.youtube....user/capandball

Edited by Panzermann, 01 December 2017 - 0943 AM.

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#32 shep854

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 0849 AM

 

Doug the 1914 qualification shoot was 600 yards maximum. They had already realised that 1000, let alone 2000 yards was unrealistic.

 

Understood, but even the Lithgow manufactured SMLE that we 'played with' in 1970-1973 as cadets still had the 2000 yard volley fire sights.

 

The basic point remains: that in 1914 the qualification shoot may have been 600 yards, but the average Tommy would have had more time to train for that range than his equivalent in 1939-1945. 

 

Another interesting point, is that there were many WW1 veterans still doing useful military work 1939-1945.  I have a book on the coastal artillery that defended Sydney 1939-1945, that comments on the local defence of batteries being provided by those veterans:  To the youngsters who manned the 'big guns' they were an object of fun, being given titles like:  'The Old and the Bold", "The Rugged and Buggered" and "The Ruthless and Toothless".  But those young gunners also respected the duty that these men, only in their 40s, provided to the nation.  There is a good chance that these 'oldies' in 1940, would have still shot straighter than their 20 year old comrades in arms.

 

Watch it now, kid...It won't be long before 40 starts looking pretty young... ;) :P


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#33 Markus Becker

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 1233 PM

C&R Arsenal for in depth design history of WW1 small arms.

https://youtu.be/pMs5RRTpEPw
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#34 rmgill

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 1406 PM

Well this looks like fun.


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#35 Inhapi

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 1414 PM

C&R Arsenal for in depth design history of WW1 small arms.

https://youtu.be/pMs5RRTpEPw

 

Thanks


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#36 Chris Werb

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 1425 PM

I would be keen to hear from anyone who knows how training and qualification standards changed after 1914.
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#37 Harold Jones

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 1620 PM

...In July 1916, 2/Royal Welch Fusiliers received some drafts who had received just six weeks' training , in the course of which they had fired 'only five rounds of ball cartridge'..."

 

Richard Holmes, Tommy pp 380

 

The chapter discusses both prewar and post 1914 marksmanship.  The general theme is that as the war progressed individual rifle marksmanship declined and units focused on grenade and to some extent bayonet use in the assault.  He also mentions that due to weapons shortages recruits would often not see a service rifle until just before they deployed, training instead with various other obsolete or nonstandard rifles.  Rifle qualification was often done on a 30 yard miniature range.


Edited by Harold Jones, 01 December 2017 - 1621 PM.

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#38 Chris Werb

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 1809 PM

Thank you Harold. There was actually a fairly substantial number of Arisakas purchased and issued. This following thread is quite informative.

 

http://1914-1918.inv...arisaka-rifles/


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#39 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 0257 AM

That was early on till they got enough Lee's though. Apparently they gave the whole job lot to Imperial Russia.


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#40 Chris Werb

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 0432 AM

Not the whole lot. Read the link ☺
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