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Notre Dame Cathedral On Fire


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#121 Jeff

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Posted Yesterday, 07:51 AM

Thing is, even if it was arson, while Islamists would obviously be a prime possibility there would be no shortage of other suspects. The uptick of church desecrations in France early this year has been widely cited, but nobody seems to have read what the Catholic watchdog group which pointed it out has said about it:

 

Catholic Churches Are Being Desecrated Across France—and Officials Don’t Know Why


By Brendan Cole On 3/21/19 at 9:04 AM EDT

 

France has seen a spate of attacks against Catholic churches since the start of the year, vandalism that has included arson and desecration.

 

Vandals have smashed statues, knocked down tabernacles, scattered or destroyed the Eucharist and torn down crosses, sparking fears of a rise in anti-Catholic sentiment in the country.

 

[...]

 

The Vienna-based Observatory of Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe, which was founded in cooperation with the Council of European Bishops Conferences (CCEE) but is now independent said there had been a 25 percent increase in attacks on Catholic churches in the first two months of the year, compared with the same time last year.

 

Its executive director, Ellen Fantini, told Newsweek that while in many cases the motive for the attacks was not known, France faced growing problems with anti-Christian violence, especially by anarchist and feminist groups.

 

“I think there is a rising hostility in France against the church and its symbols," but "it seems to be more against Christianity and the symbols of Christianity.

 

“These attacks are on symbols that are really sacred to parishioners, to Catholics. Desecration of consecrated hosts is a very personal attack on Catholicism and Christianity, more than spray-painting a slogan on the outside wall of a church.”

 

She said that while France had a long tradition of secularism, it was seen as a culturally Christian country, and so any "attack on the church as a symbol of religion was also an attack on authority and patrimony.

 

"The pressure is coming from the radical secularists or anti-religion groups as well as feminist activists who tend to target churches as a symbol of the patriarchy that needs to be dismantled," she added.

 

[...]

 

https://www.newsweek...-statue-1370800

 

It's also somewhat conspicious that the attacks have risen in step with the emergence of the Yellow Vest movement, elements of which have not only vandalized and burned posh restaurants, shops and banks, but also defaced and smashed statues at the Arc de Triomphe, France's premier memorial to its war dead, spanning the tomb of the unkown soldier.

 

Of course everone sees what he wants to see. Given the subject, this seems very appropriate:

 

 

We don't really know what's going on, but it's those feminists and anarchists! Once again, how about we find some damn facts before we create a false reality to make ourselves feel better and to keep the lid on the building pressure cooker. The harder they work to convince everyone it's one thing and definitely NOT another when they have little facts to base that on, the MORE they wind up discontent and anger. Asking for calm is understandable, using misdirection is just dishonest and makes things worse in the end.


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#122 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 08:05 AM

I think the problem is largely the one of living in an information era. Its increasingly easy to find the reality we want to believe if we search hard enough. If people WANT to believe it was Jihadi's, or Nazi's, or Jehovah smiting down the ungodly, they will find the evidence to support it. Or at least, evidence enough to sustain it in their eyes.

 

When I was a kid, I used to read about UFO's. This kind of perspective on the world was always evident in that, and still is. What is something of a surprise is the rest of the world caught up with them.

 

I kind of envy the people who built Notre Dame, when they only reality they believed was in a Bible. Whether they were right or wrong, there was a functional simplicity in it I admire.


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#123 sunday

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Posted Yesterday, 08:17 AM

 

The woods put apart for maintenance of USS Constitution could also be a source.

The other source of big lumber, Douglas Fir, probably would not be a good enough wood.


Live oak from South Georgia.

(...)

 

 

Thanks! Mr. Cross is quite the character. Seems live oak is good for naval construction, but no long, straight timber of the kind needed for beams.


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#124 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 08:36 AM

I dont know what Oak they constructed RN warships out of, but it proved adequate for beams. I visited Berkley Castle some years ago, and I noted that many of the roof beams they had in the hall were recovered from warships that had been demolished. The Berkley's had a long tradition of service in the Navy, and they probably got them cheap.

 

Not only that, they make pretty good Presidential desks too...

 

https://en.wikipedia...i/Resolute_desk


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#125 Inhapi

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Posted Yesterday, 09:28 AM

 

Not only that, they make pretty good Presidential desks too...

 

https://en.wikipedia...i/Resolute_desk

 

But for that , they must first spend some time in the arctic. (note that there were more desks made from the Resolute wood. If i'm correct a ladies desk is in possesion of the queen, but i don't know wether she uses it ATM


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#126 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 09:35 AM

Id love to know what happened to that corner cupboard that was made. Im sure that would be worth a mint now if it came up for auction.

 

Thought this was a great shot of the Resolute desk.

Caroline_Kennedy_Kerry_Kennedy_Resolute_


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#127 MiloMorai

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Posted Yesterday, 10:33 AM

Oak for the construction of ships was 'shaped' while growing.

​

In other news, there is a growing backlash in France for the LARGE donations by the super rich. https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartanntp


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#128 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 10:50 AM

Im still struggling to understand how France, with the large taxation against the rich, still struggles to find the money to look after national monuments. This is a no brainer in Britain where we have a much lower tax system. If you arent going to look after national monuments, what are you going to spend the money on?

 

Personally, I admire the rich for putting money towards it. They would do far better to ask the question how Notre Dame got into the state it was described as being in a year ago, rather than blaming the super rich for their problems.


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#129 MiloMorai

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Posted Yesterday, 10:59 AM

I would suppose that the question is Stuart, why didn't the super rich not put up the money before the fire?


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#130 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 11:21 AM

Because, and this is the problem im struggling to reconcile, why should they when its owned by the state? Does anyone ask Bill Gates, personally, to subsidize the renovation of the senate? Or Richard Branson to fork out for the renovation of Parliament? Indirectly, via taxation they may, but that is a responsibility of al of us as citizens.

 

If the French Government dont want the responsibility, hand it over to the church and let them fund raise. Dont accept the responsibility, and deny them the funds. Look at that CBS report I cited above. That is precisely what the French Government has been doing, and doing it for years.

 

And now Macron is snapping his fingers, wanting it done in time for his Olympics. The absolute bloody nerve of the man!


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#131 Ssnake

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Posted Yesterday, 11:59 AM

Anyone complaining that the super-rich aren't donating enough or for the wrong reasons is invited to lead by example. Much more credible that way.


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#132 Inhapi

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Posted Yesterday, 12:56 PM

yes this is an empty post


Edited by Inhapi, Yesterday, 01:20 PM.

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#133 Inhapi

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Posted Yesterday, 12:57 PM

yes this is an empty post


Edited by Inhapi, Yesterday, 01:20 PM.

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#134 Martin M

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Posted Yesterday, 01:03 PM

As posts go by I´m drifting more and more to the Panzermann camp on this.

yawn

 

and yes the saw mill man with his live oaks is great !


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#135 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 01:50 PM

Im not. The building is the history of Modern Europe, probably more so than any other single building on the continent. Well, possibly other than the Reichstag anyway.

 

Found out the other day that one of my relatives was present at Notre Dame during the coronation of King Henry VI of England and France. I idly wonder how many other people on this site have had their history shaped by it without realizing it.


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#136 Panzermann

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Posted Yesterday, 02:34 PM

As posts go by I´m drifting more and more to the Panzermann camp on this.

yawn

 

and yes the saw mill man with his live oaks is great !

 

I have a camp?

 

It sadly happens from time to time that churches burn down. Just like any other building. In this case the investgators say so far, that it was short-circuited rotten electric installation. I had suspected the craftmen doing something fith heat on the roof like heating tar or cutting a rusted bolt or something similar. Churches in France in general seem to be in a general state of disrepair for reasons of underfunding and noone really feeling responsible. So better keep a few steps distance or a gargoyle spouter may drop on you passing by. 

 

 

 

What is sad for future generations is that now the original wood is burnt away. So you cannot make tests like dendrochronology to find the age of the trees used to the construction to confirm the age of the building. Notre Dame itself seems not to have had that much of really old loot. That has been taken by the french revolution mobs already. Looks like there are no exact drawings of Notre Dame in its mason's lodge (is that Dombauhütte in english?). The most exact is a set of laser scans that were made for one of the Assassin's Creed video games. Video game saves historic monument.  Weird times we live in.

 

 

Also funny how french state and catholic church have begun pushing responsibilty to each other for paying the rebuilding.  


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#137 rmgill

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Posted Yesterday, 08:29 PM

Thanks! Mr. Cross is quite the character. Seems live oak is good for naval construction, but no long, straight timber of the kind needed for beams.


Depends on the piece too. I suspect that there are some bits of live oak that would yield the requisite bits. But so too do we have, red and white oak in North American forests that are of sufficient size and age to be appropriate. And there are people still hewing beams out of logs.



I suspect a mix of oak and poplar would probably work well. Poplar is nice as it's rather light for a hard wood and grows fast.



We have much bigger trees in North America than what MR and Mrs Chickadee have on their homestead.
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#138 rmgill

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Posted Yesterday, 08:31 PM

Because, and this is the problem im struggling to reconcile, why should they when its owned by the state? Does anyone ask Bill Gates, personally, to subsidize the renovation of the senate? Or Richard Branson to fork out for the renovation of Parliament? Indirectly, via taxation they may, but that is a responsibility of al of us as citizens.


Actually, in the US, quite a few public projects have private donors. FAR better to have private donors make such efforts than take money from tax payers.
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#139 rmgill

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Posted Yesterday, 08:35 PM

France has their wonderful Guedelon Castle project. Were I looking around for folks to lead, I'd hit those craftsmen up for leadership roles.


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