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Ancient Bear Defence


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#41 Bob Lyle

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 1432 PM

I don't think I have any new ideas but..

Hunting spear or halberd. Hunting spear has the crossbar, halberd's axe and back spike serve the same purpose. Halberd can chop, probably disabling limbs or kill with a downright blow to the head. Spear is faster and more agile. If I know I am going to be outside I'll take a nine-foot bill or partizan.

Body armor, mail with coif. If he hits me square he will knock me down and break bones no matter what I wear, but the mail will keep me fron getting clawed by a glancing blow.

Bows can't be stored strung, so not readily available.

For backup, a good cut and thrust sword, single or double edged, not too short so I can try to stay out of the bear's reach.
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#42 DKTanker

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 1529 PM

My kids think me ancient, therefor the period I'll pick is the 2nd half of the 20th century. F15s, I believe, would provide for very good Bear defense. :)
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#43 UN-Interested Observer

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 1613 PM

i believe theres a martial art created specially to SURVIVE against predators. i think its called pa-kwa or anything like it.

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Forgive me now, because I'm going to mangle this, but:

I believe the original 'martial art' was created by a wanderer from India named (so sorry) Buddy Budai. Asui he came up with ingenuitive combat styles and concepts through emulating nature, and to defend against nature. Iirc he visited a Shaolin Temple, and they were so impressed with his invention that they eagerly listened to all he had to say, then they poisoned him. I believe he escaped, and lived to teach others.
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#44 JOE BRENNAN

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 1614 PM

A book I had on medieval armor (a long time ago I've lost) contained a German woodcut of knights fighting bears in full plate armor (around Maximillian period somebody mentioned Max armor before), with short swords/daggers, no shields IIRC. The original caption was something like "the bears cannot grip the slippery armor". I don't know if it really supposed to be serious or fanciful, grotesque sort of thing those crazy German woodcut engravers had a taste for.

Joe

Edited by JOE BRENNAN, 27 March 2005 - 1615 PM.

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#45 gewing

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 1635 PM

The idea of an oversized broadhead is good, but you have to be able to stabilize it. THis might be rather difficult.


probably he has using standard (long) bow arrows. in bows, arrow must be long because must reach from drawing hand to holding hand. that makes them slender and less rigid, prone to break by buckling.
on the crossbow, bolt rides a groove or similar, and can be as short (hence fat, for a given weight) as you want. some crossbows fired even spherical balls or stones. your friend could simple handmade his own bolts, from short thick dowels of plain wood.
most difficult tactical problem is the charging bear. if bear charge, you will probably have time only for one shot, no matter crossbow reloading speed. if bear does not charge, you will probably get more shots, no matter crossbow reloading speed (either bear stays on the spot, or he runs, then you want to allow cooling time before tracking it; both cases you have time).
the issue of overpower is not for extraordinary piercing power against metal, but to allow use of a huge broadhead (in fact, as broad as can still penetrate deep enough); 4, 6, 8 inches? if we have, in worst case, a single shot, i want that shot as powerful as possible; in a cutting slow projectile, that mean as wide a wound cut path as possible
square/cube law holds only for exactly scaled design, and nature tweaks its designs precisely to adjust to square/cube law.
a horse scaled up to elephant size would have weak legs, because the squared/cube law. that is why precisely an elephant has (relative to body) thicker legs than a horse.
a bear eight times heavier than an athletic man would in all probability be eight times as strong as an athletic man of same living ways than bear.
probably more effective, assuming you connect to bear skull, would be a war pick (simpler, a piolet of the kind used by alpinists to escalate ice).

interesting topic. anyone on dinosaur killing?

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#46 sunday

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 1706 PM

My kids think me ancient, therefor the period I'll pick is the 2nd half of the 20th century.  F15s, I believe, would provide for very good Bear defense.  :)

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F-106s go more with the period :P

[changed to english syntantic conventions]
[changed typo in the first "change" commentary]

Edited by sunday, 27 March 2005 - 1710 PM.

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#47 Colin

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 1945 PM

Well I have seen film of a Grizzly putting a full grown Caribou into a headlock and then flipping it on it's back! Also one bear attack that was determined by the tracks and remains, showed that the Grizzly chased down a horse and man, took down and killed both of them.

Another recent case, hunter shot Grizzly, it killed him and walked 3-4 km before dying.

Last year while walking back along a remote river in NE British Columbia, I noticed that there was a set of Grizzly tracks right beside my own tracks. I retreated into a log jam and waited to see if he was following me. I figured the log jam would act like a barricade allowing me to aim my 12 gauge slugs. After 1 hour and no bear, I started moving again, keeping in the open and stopping every so often to ensure he wasn't following me.

For a Black bear of average size, I still like the Roman shield and short sword, although I would add a short spear for the initial attack. Let the bear attack the shield and use upward stabs with the sword letting the shield protect my arm and body. I would stay crouched from impact on, to prevent being knocked down. A bear likes to knock down it's prey and will often jump on them to finish them off, all the while tearing you up!
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#48 Bob Lyle

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 1043 AM

For a Black bear of average size, I still like the Roman shield and short sword, although I would add a short spear for the initial attack. Let the bear attack the shield and use upward stabs with the sword letting the shield protect my arm and body. I would stay crouched from impact on, to prevent being knocked down. A bear likes to knock down it's prey and will often jump on them to finish them off, all the while tearing you up!

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Better you than me. I figurr the first good blow the bear gdts will break my shiel arm.
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#49 toysoldier

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 1139 AM

For a Black bear of average size, I still like the Roman shield and short sword, although I would add a short spear for the initial attack. Let the bear attack the shield and use upward stabs with the sword letting the shield protect my arm and body. I would stay crouched from impact on, to prevent being knocked down. A bear likes to knock down it's prey and will often jump on them to finish them off, all the while tearing you up!

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wasn´t there a hook or axe with a rope used by some barbarian ppl to grab roman shields and dragg the legionare? i would hate to be a legionare dragged by a bear claw. or mebbe the bear would just push the shield over you and then stand over it. talk about "crack under pressure".
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#50 Xonitex

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 0034 AM

Judo.

Some bear jumped a Judo black belt in northern Japan a few years back and ended up hip tossed so hard that he scurried back into the woods  :)

Now, a grizzly would be another matter.  Shoud enter one in the next UFC and see how Gracie Jujitsu fares against...

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Did some scouting on the internet. The judo guy was actually 63 years old! The bear was supposedly 1.7 meters long, by the way.

I wouldn't go near a grizzly bear unless I had a semiautomatic rifle firing at least 7.62. An M1 Garand seems like a good choice. Lewis and Clark would hit grizzlies multiple times and they'd still keep on running. In terms of ancient bear defense, I would suppose a big, strong, skilled knight in full armor/mail and a heavy shield could take down a bear with a few carefully-timed swings from his broadsword. Preferably, he'd have impaled the bear with a spear first.

EDIT: When I mean "carefully-timed swings" I mean a good blow to the head. If the bear's muscles are as hard as they're supposed to be then it would be difficult to get a swinging, charging bear down with a sword unless you can get in a lucky hit or you have a very long edged weapon. Legionnaires have the advantage in maneuverability but other than the pilum I think their weapons are a bit outranged by an average grizzly bear's reach...

Edited by Xonitex, 29 March 2005 - 0038 AM.

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#51 Benjamin Etxaburu

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 0521 AM

The idea of an oversized broadhead is good, but you have to be able to stabilize it.  THis might be rather difficult.

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nothing is easy on weaponry designing, but this one isn't particularly difficult. try these two:
1) use oversized fins ("feathers") as companion to oversized broadhead, or
2) use oversized sharp metal fins (on a short bolt) AS the broadhead (think of a concorde shaped arrow).
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#52 Keith L

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 1126 AM

How about a claymore, I mean the mine not the sword. :o
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#53 sunday

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 1139 AM

How about a claymore, I mean the mine not the sword. :o

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That's not ancient <_<
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#54 Yish

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 1623 PM

Okay, what about charging elephants?
Obviously, any sort of armor would be pointless.
Supposedly, men with heavy scythe swords were able to hack their legs off with a quick succession of blows.
Personally, I'd take a fast horse, a bow and many arrows. And I'd be aiming for the mahout.
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#55 DougRichards

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 1845 PM

Okay, what about charging elephants?
Obviously, any sort of armor would be pointless.
Supposedly, men with heavy scythe swords were able to hack their legs off with a quick succession of blows.
Personally, I'd take a fast horse, a bow and many arrows. And I'd be aiming for the mahout.

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Two solutions to elephants that worked, both involved numbers: Slingers massing their fire against elephant's head, turning it away. Alexanders army used a phalanx with locked shields to drive elephants back.

I still think that Roman scorpios and light catapults would have been effective anti-elephant weapons.

As for individual versus elephant? No much point in trying to use an edged weapon. I have heard of a modern bow hunter stalking and killing an elephant with one arrow throught its eye into its brain, would have been quite a shot, and I would say that the elephant was probably at rest, and not charging. Also a terrible waste of a wonderful creature so that someone could claim an elephant.

Only other possibility would be someone like a Mongol horseman, firing a series of arrows whilst evading the elephant's charge, hoping that oune gets through and hits a vulnerable spot.
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#56 Cookie Monster

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 2309 PM

Which cat is stronger? A tiger or a lion. I used to think that tigers were more powerful than lions but after comparing the sizes of those two, I am not so sure.
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#57 TSJ

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 2326 PM

No lion has ever weighed 800 lbs in the wild. Tigers have. Siberian tigers get huge. Tigers rule except when compared to a grizzly bear. Or a polar bear for that matter.

I wish the American lion had not gone extinct. I have seen the bones of an American lion taken from the La Brea tar pits compared to an African lion skeleton and the American lion was 50% bigger. That was one awesome kitty cat about 12,000 years ago! Saber tooth tigers were not small either although not as big as the American lion. A trip to the La Brea tar pits is a great educational experience.
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#58 DougRichards

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 0303 AM

No lion has ever weighed 800 lbs in the wild. Tigers have. Siberian tigers get huge. Tigers rule except when compared to a grizzly bear. Or a polar bear for that matter.

I wish the American lion had not gone extinct. I have seen the bones of an American lion taken from the La Brea tar pits compared to an African lion skeleton and the American lion was 50% bigger. That was one awesome kitty cat about 12,000 years ago! Saber tooth tigers were not small either although not as big as the American lion. A trip to the La Brea tar pits is a great educational experience.

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And these would have been no slouch either as carnivores:

http://www.smh.com.a...2302290818.html

Lion king of Ice Age
April 3, 2005
The Sun-Herald

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A marsupial lion that roamed Australia during the Ice Age had the most powerful bite of any known animal in the world, living or extinct, an Australian and Canadian research team has discovered.

More closely related to a wombat than an African lion, the 100-kilogram marsupial known as Thylacoleo carnifex could out-bite the sabre-toothed tiger, the bone-cracking spotted hyena and the Tasmanian Devil.

The researchers compared the bite force of the marsupial lion with 38 different species, living and extinct, and found that its jaws were much stronger than any other species for its size.

The team, Colin McHenry of the University of Newcastle, Dr Stephen Wroe of the University of Sydney and Professor Jeffrey Thomason of the University of Guelph in Ontario, published their findings in an online paper for the Proceedings of the Royal Society series.

"From measurements of skull dimensions we predicted bite force in a wide range of mammalian carnivores," Dr Wroe, a palaeontologist, said in a statement.

"I had a hunch the marsupial lion would have a very powerful bite but we were surprised at just how hard they were biting given their size.

"A good-sized marsupial lion could weigh up to 130 kilos - the size of a front row rugby forward."

Related to wombats and koalas, Thylacoleo carnifex is referred to as the marsupial lion because of its robust, cat-like appearance, and was capable of grasping its prey with strong semi-opposable thumb claws.

Combined with its powerful jaws and huge incisor teeth, the marsupial lion was the largest mammalian predator in Australia during the Ice Age and became extinct some time within the past 45,000 years.

"Its biggest prey would have been the Diprotodon, a gigantic wombat-like creature that could weigh over three tonnes," Dr Wroe said.

"Using the same methods we have applied to measure the bite force of the marsupial lion, we can also estimate or predict the maximum prey size of living species."
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#59 DougRichards

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 0304 AM

Of course, an even more interesting face up would be ancient defence against a rhino!
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#60 gewing

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 0744 AM

nothing is easy on weaponry designing, but this one isn't particularly difficult. try these two:
1) use oversized fins ("feathers") as companion to oversized broadhead, or
2) use oversized sharp metal fins (on a short bolt) AS the broadhead (think of a concorde shaped arrow).

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2) is why I have always been interested in the italian "armor piercing shot" APFSDS load for the 12 ga. an 1800 fps Armor piercing broadhead??? :):):):)
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