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#3761 DKTanker

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 1221 PM

 

To learn if it's feasible to colonize other worlds at all.

Until we have completed a hypothetical terraforming of Mars, living on Earth will always be preferable from the perspective of comfort. Without doubt staying planetside will be the rational and cost-effective solution until the day that we experience a planetary catastrophe. And that may still be millions of years away. We just don't know when exactly it'll happen, just that it'll happen.

 

Colonize other worlds at all?  It's been tried here on Earth at least twice, with little success.  If you want to see if it is feasible to colonize other worlds, do a real experiment here on Earth using no more resources and people than can be sent to another world.  Biosphere 2 had one glaring problem, aside from being a failure, it was built using hundreds of contract workers using materials, methods, and equipment that would be unavailable on other worlds.


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#3762 Ssnake

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 1225 PM

I suppose we need a couple more of those experiements to get it right eventually. That's the whole point of doing experiments in pursuit of new solutions. If you knew how to do it you wouldn't need the experiment in the first place, but of course you know that already, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is aside from fundamental opposition.

Which is perfectly valid, except for the long-term perspective.


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#3763 DKTanker

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 1249 PM

I suppose we need a couple more of those experiements to get it right eventually. That's the whole point of doing experiments in pursuit of new solutions. If you knew how to do it you wouldn't need the experiment in the first place, but of course you know that already, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is aside from fundamental opposition.

Which is perfectly valid, except for the long-term perspective.

The point being there is reason to waste time and resources doing something on the Moon or Mars if you can't do it right here in your backyard.  At that, the very deadly aspect of being irradiated on the way to Mars, not to mention on a return trip, means a human trip to Mars remains a one way venture for the foreseeable future.  If Elon Musk and his followers want to make that trip, fine by me, but they should do it on their own dime sans NASA subsidies (read, my tax dollars).


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#3764 Ssnake

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 1651 PM

Fair enough, but I don't see anyone setting out to create a habitat without having tested it thoroughly on Earth first. SpaceX is just making the delivery vans. I suppose the theory is that someone else will conduct the habitat ecospheres, and by the time that deliveries to Moon or Mars have become cheap enough to even think of transporting tons of water there (and chances are, we won't find it on the Moon) the ecosphere problem has been solved to the point where someone bold enough to try it out can move out to install it. Assuming that an army of autonomous robots has created the basic facilities even before the first human walks in.

 

It seems as if laser sintering of lunar surface dust could be a viable 3D printing method to erect walls. One problem at a time.


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#3765 JasonJ

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 0835 AM

chinarocketfins1.jpg

 

chinarocketfins2.jpg


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#3766 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 0843 AM

Fair enough, but I don't see anyone setting out to create a habitat without having tested it thoroughly on Earth first. SpaceX is just making the delivery vans. I suppose the theory is that someone else will conduct the habitat ecospheres, and by the time that deliveries to Moon or Mars have become cheap enough to even think of transporting tons of water there (and chances are, we won't find it on the Moon) the ecosphere problem has been solved to the point where someone bold enough to try it out can move out to install it. Assuming that an army of autonomous robots has created the basic facilities even before the first human walks in.

 

It seems as if laser sintering of lunar surface dust could be a viable 3D printing method to erect walls. One problem at a time.

 

That technology is already being worked on for the moon. NASA is trying to make autonomous robots that can dig moondust, mix it with some various chemicals and make domes out of a space concrete. No guaranteeing mars would be that easy, but it looks a good concept.

 

 

chinarocketfins1.jpg

 

chinarocketfins2.jpg

 

Those look like fins from an R77. A reentry vehicle of some kind?


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#3767 BansheeOne

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 0904 AM

I was thinking of the vanes on the Falcon booster, which is pointing in the same direction - guided re-entry.
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#3768 Burncycle360

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 1132 AM

Yep, why spend lots of money pioneering new things when its much cheaper to wait for someone else to figure out what works and just follow on their footsteps. Its shrewd and practical
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#3769 Soren Ras

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 1233 PM

Highly recommend the four part series by Bill Whittle - Apollo 11 What We Saw

 

(about five hours in total)

 

I got them as podcasts, but having heard them, went to Youtube and saw them as well.

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ_0tD0Zy58

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwVzIZhGhEQ

 

 

--

Soren


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#3770 Josh

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 1247 PM

I was thinking of the vanes on the Falcon booster, which is pointing in the same direction - guided re-entry.

 

Except the fins are on the second stage, which SpaceX has abandoned all research in recovering. And they are on the tail of the rocket. Curious. What type or rocket is that and what was the payload?


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#3771 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 1327 PM

I'm wondering if this is a test article for a new anti ship ballistic missile?
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#3772 Josh

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 1506 PM

That would be an exceedingly large RV if so. There is clearly an interstate below them; almost half the length of the rocket is attached to the vanes.
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#3773 DB

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 1717 PM

 

I was thinking of the vanes on the Falcon booster, which is pointing in the same direction - guided re-entry.

 

Except the fins are on the second stage, which SpaceX has abandoned all research in recovering. And they are on the tail of the rocket. Curious. What type or rocket is that and what was the payload?

 

 

 

Are you sure that's the second stage? It looks as if the grid fins are  mounted on the interstage shroud for the second stage engine.

 

The wiki page suggests that the first stage on a CZ-2C is more than three times longer than the second stage, which is consistent with the separation being at the top of the grey band. If so, the grid fins are in a similar relative position to those on the Falcon first stage - near the upper end. Actually on the tank body would be difficult as it looks like a "balloon" style tank to me whereas the interstage has scope for more strength and space behind it..


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#3774 Ssnake

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 0048 AM

Also, such fins should be mounted on the opposite end of the engine; at least the point of aerodynamic attack must be behind the center of mass to hope achieving stable flight conditions. Mounting them at the bottom of the second stage makes no sense whatsoever.


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#3775 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 0156 AM

I cant make much sense of just having a reusable second stage. If they are aiming for some kind of reusable rocket, why not reuse all of it?


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#3776 Ssnake

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 0222 AM

Well, obviously they just try to recover the first stage, if that's not abundantly clear already.


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#3777 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 0251 AM

Yes, but why put air foils on the second stage, if you are only going to recover the first stage? Unless we are suggesting they split this in two on the way up and recover both stages separately, which doesnt seem to make a lot of sense to me, and is going to add weight by  adding  landing legs for the second stage as well as the ones to the first stage. So why not do it like Space X, recover the first and bin any subsequent stages? it would be a lot cheaper and more efficient.

 

The only conclusion I can make is if they are going to put airfoils on the second stage, they are going to manoeuvre that through air. And the only reasons I can think of why they would want to do that, is they want to land the second stage only, or they want to use aim it at something on the way back down. Which amounts to the same thing.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 01 August 2019 - 0253 AM.

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#3778 Ssnake

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 0259 AM

THEY AREN'T on the second stage. They're at the very top of the separator bit that connects the top of the first stage with the bottom of the second. The whole grey element will remain connected with the first stage, even if it shrouds the thruster nozzles of the second in the pictures above.


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#3779 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 0306 AM

Hmm, thats interesting. I assumed the v section delineated the end of a stage, like it does in the Vostok.

 

vostok_lv_silo_satur_1.jpg


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 01 August 2019 - 0306 AM.

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#3780 DB

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 0447 AM

Did you even read what I wrote, Stuart?
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