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Iran Military Re-Arms


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#301 Josh

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 2152 PM

Not sure where you're going with that one.


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#302 Burncycle360

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 0633 AM

Not sure where you're going with that one.

Sorry it wasn't directed at you or related to the tanker incident. It's a response to the earlier conversation regarding how restrained or unrestrained actions should be against places in Iran and conflict in general.

There are still a lot of places in this world where the culture is unrestrained by modern western notions of civility.  Some cultures are rife with traits that are truly medieval, at the end of the day might makes right and brutality is the order of the day, all that's needed is the means and opportunity, both of which trickle down in the form of new technology and unrest.     On the other hand the west trends to the other extreme of that spectrum and are overly restrained.  To a degree (and to a point) we can afford to be like that, but beyond a certain point you are so beyond diminishing returns in the name of the moral high ground that you might as well not even bother getting involved because you're getting your own killed for nothing at all.   All for the sake of sparing the rights and affording them courtesies they would never show you in return -- a recipe for a quagmire.


My presumption is that part of it is due to western culture having been coddled, and isolated from the sort of reality about what people are willing to do to each other in much of the rest of the world.    For those who haven't been exposed to some of the savage things that a lot of these people are willing to do to other humans and still sleep at night with a smile and the fan on medium, the concept is simply alien to the average person here.   They just can't fathom it, the equivalent of "I mean I know he's actively stabbing you to death, but why don't you just shoot them in the leg?".  We are the British cira 1800s, unable to understand why the enemy do not line up like gentlemen and trade blows on the field of battle as civilized nations do.  If your society can't adapt, that's it. You're on the decline, even if you don't see it yet.  We've become a society so preoccupied with our own opulance and sense of moral superiority, believing we've evolved beyond the savagery that's dictated the direction of human society since the beginning of recorded history, and bickering amongst ourselves over things that matter little in the grand scheme thing of things.

It's probably alien for them too, for us to have reached such levels of power and technological might yet not use it to simply crush anyone who doesn't agree with us.  The truth is, we did, and we did it way better, and it wasn't all that long ago.  It built the society in which we exist now, but has been in repose for the last couple of generations.

So, some of the propaganda videos of what they're doing to each other IMO should almost be required watching... not with the purpose of indoctrinating our society into thinking everyone who is not western is savage, but to inoculate us from forgetting that evil truly exists out there and it's never too far away.  The layperson's opinion on what levels of restraint we should show in conflict (be it a police encounter or warfare) are irrelevant -- they're unable to make informed decisions (and unable to understand) if they're not getting exposed to the realities that life is still cheap in a lot of places, and the world is indifferent to how offended you are.  That might cause some emotional distress though, but isn't that at a record high regardless?

I'm not saying we should go full Daenarys on kings landing, but on the other hand let's not get our people killed for nothing, getting involved in things for the show of going through the motions but not really being serious about affecting change.
 


Edited by Burncycle360, 14 June 2019 - 0635 AM.

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#303 Colin

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 1440 PM

The west needs to watch all the propaganda videos coming out of the Mid East and get mushroom stamped with the realities of the world we live in. Every generation understandably and naturally wants to spare their children from the hardships they had to endure, but as soon as they're successful in protecting them from that exposure, the unintended 2nd order effects of naïveté, ignorance, entitlement and taking their standard of living for granted inevitably results.

He had it right in that movie Fury

"Wait till you see it..."

https://www.memri.org/


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#304 KV7

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 2137 PM

The 'west' is extremely brutal and not at all reserved when we adjust for what little is at stake. If the US really was facing a near existential crisis, it would be inflicting a sort of violence and barbarity that would make even the most exaggerated stereotypes about brutal Arabs or Iranians look quint.

The US 'losing' in Vietnam or Korea was in a grand sense completely inconsequential, but in order to try and forestall that all sorts of horrors were inflicted. Consider for example the justification of the firebombing and nuclear attacks in WW2 - by that same logic Syria could argue the case for extensive chemical attacks on Idlib city in order to win the war with less casualties. And the Iraqi use of chemical weapons looks even justified, as they were in a tougher fight than the US was wrt. to Japan.

And then we have the leveling of Fallujah and other atrocities such as the fomenting of sectarian violence committed as a result of trying to suppress an insurgency, in order to 'not lose' a war which did not need to be started, let alone 'won'.  Suppose that the US pulled out of Iraq in 2005 or so - what would they have lost in respect to the current situation ? Even in the most rosy for the pro-war camp case it is nothing very consequential.



 


Edited by KV7, 14 June 2019 - 2139 PM.

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#305 JWB

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 1100 AM

The west is brutal?

Fallujah:

"......the Iraqi government and the Americans had managed to persuade/cajole well over 90 percent of the city’s populace to evacuate their homes, so if the American infantry ran into exceedingly tough resistance, as indeed they did, they could employ the full range of their lethal supporting arms...."

After the battle the city was rebuilt and almost the entire population returned.

https://www.thedaily...ought-nightmare


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#306 Nobu

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 1145 AM

We've become a society so preoccupied with our own opulance and sense of moral superiority

 

A brutal statement, but an honest one, as it is just as applicable to Japan and Japanese as it is to America and Americans.

 

I just saw an edited video of a teen being butchered on the streets of New York by gang members who were sentenced yesterday. Based on your statement, I think I should seek out the unedited version.


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#307 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 1226 PM

Meh, we were soft and stupid and let women and cripples vote, based on subversive ideas of "equality" or some such idiocy.  No one is equal, we're all unique, remember?  

 

If you have nothing at stake, how in Hell can you expect them to make responsible decisions? 

 

Anyways, the problem is core biology and will not be resolved until that is accepted.  Since current mentality you can't even mention this, let alone debate it, this whole thing will come to a smashing point, hopefully sooner vice later.  S/F....Ken M  


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#308 DB

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 0547 AM

Deliberate "leak" or 5th column from the 4th estate?

https://www.bbc.co.u...canada-48735097
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#309 Chris Werb

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 0603 AM

It seems wrong to reveal the cyber capability before you really need it.
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#310 shep854

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 1442 PM

The optimist in me wonders what we are NOT talking about.

----

And the Iranians respond:

https://www.globalse...4-presstv01.htm


Iran hacked US drone command center in response to Washington's impudence: IRGC


Edited by shep854, 23 June 2019 - 1443 PM.

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#311 Adam Peter

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 1916 PM

Is the SAM that downed the drone a fruit of cyber espionage on Patriot? Some says the launcher box is too similar.


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#312 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 0202 AM

I wouldnt read too much into that. Their tanks look just like Abram's, but.....

 

 

I think its the Iranian way of looking more advanced than they are.  Although they clearly arent idiots either.


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#313 BansheeOne

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 0209 AM

And the Iranians respond:
https://www.globalse...4-presstv01.htm

Iran hacked US drone command center in response to Washington's impudence: IRGC


That's actually a report from February, though.
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#314 Panzermann

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 1335 PM

Is the SAM that downed the drone a fruit of cyber espionage on Patriot? Some says the launcher box is too similar.

 
a launcher box does not say much. It is just a box.
 

I wouldnt read too much into that. Their tanks look just like Abram's, but.....

 
Yes, they are really strong on imitating the great satan.
 

I think its the Iranian way of looking more advanced than they are.  Although they clearly arent idiots either.

 

Very true. they must be really good at reverse engineering old cold war equipment by now.


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#315 KV7

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 1048 AM

Is the SAM that downed the drone a fruit of cyber espionage on Patriot? Some says the launcher box is too similar.

See the 'torpedoes tankers' thread' - It is RIM-66 derived.

See here: https://www.janes.co...edium-range-sam

1168840-main.jpg

DraKpleXQAUQBvi.jpg


Edited by KV7, 27 June 2019 - 1054 AM.

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#316 BansheeOne

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 1322 PM

Look who's suddenly calling upon the Europeans to follow the stipulations of the nuclear agreement with Iran he was always opposed to, and which he welcomed the US withdrawing from, leading to its breakdown. :D

 

July 1, 2019 / 5:29 PM / a day ago

 
Israel calls for 'automatic' European sanctions on Iran over uranium breach

 

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu urged Europe on Monday to impose “automatic sanctions” on Iran for accumulating more low-enriched uranium than permitted under its 2015 nuclear deal with major powers.

 

“I say again that Israel will not allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons,” Netanyahu said, according to a statement from his office.

 

“On this day I also call on all European countries to stand behind their commitments. You committed to act the moment Iran violates the nuclear agreement, you committed to activate the mechanism for automatic sanctions that was set in the (U.N.) Security Council,” he said.

 

A European diplomat told Reuters there was a mechanism under the agreement to deal with “any inconsistencies”, and it would be up to a joint commission of signatories to decide next steps.

 

Iran’s move was the first major step in violation of the deal since the United States pulled out of it more than a year ago and reimposed tough economic sanctions on Iran.

 

[...]

 

https://www.reuters....h-idUSKCN1TW35R


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#317 Josh

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 1534 PM

As I said in another thread, it will be ironic if Bibi tried his best to get the deal to break only to have a US president unwilling to take action, leaving Iran to go nuclear and Israel to clean up the mess.


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#318 JasonJ

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 1918 PM

F-22s arrived in Qatar.
https://www.aljazeer...9063530291.html
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#319 Josh

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 2244 PM

I almost wonder what they will do there other than shake their fists. They aren't particularly necessary for air to air or air to ground, or else they would already live there.


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#320 JasonJ

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 2252 PM

There's only a few. If the US wants to display a fully credable threat of force, they'll do it that can minimize causalties, bringing it to zero. So a razy edge will might make that possible.

If Iranian fighter aircraft mass a defense in a well air defense area, a fighter jet might get off a lucky shot at an F-16 or F-15. Less likely if F-22s are up in the air.

One other possible reason is to provide F-22s an opportunity for some actual combat operation experience. Even if no direct air combat, going through the motions might give it more useful insight than just the usual kind of training.

My guesses anyway. I don't think the US would want to station such expensive birds over the long term in the middle of the ME.
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