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Kiev Is Burning


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#21 Heirophant

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 1554 PM

For the sake of argument, let us posit an essential Ukrainian identity, a unified one regardless of language.

Language is but one part of cultural affinity, and sometimes not the crucial one, after all.

 

Even with that stipulation, it is not clear if the Ukrainian people are united at all in wanting to be in either the Western or Russian spheres of influence. Ukraine has a split identity, with some fraction feeling more European, another closer to Russian. This is the long term parameter regarding Ukraine, one that will not go away. Centuries of history make it so.

 

The best long-term strategy for them would be to navigate carefully between Europe and Russia, falling into neither camp, maintaining their cultural uniqueness and independence. The outside powers should have a de facto understanding that Ukraine is not to be used as pawn, but that both sides should be consulted on Ukrainian external matters. Okay, this paragraph is full of ideal BS platitudes, I know. But it still had to be stated.

 

To the extent ALL sides (Ukraine, the "West", Russia) can follow that basic game plan, (and cultivate a modicum of good faith dealing, and keep cynical power politics in check), the Ukraine could become a true gateway between Europe and the rest of Eurasia.

 

Hmmm, now that I think about it, the odds are not looking good . . .


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#22 Damian

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 1601 PM

Indeed, you have a very good point.


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#23 X-Files

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 1700 PM

..or splitting the Ukraine between Ukrainian and Russian regions.

 

Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png

 

This one map helps explain Ukraine’s protests

http://www.washingto...aines-protests/

 

Related - pipeline map

http://en.ria.ru/inf.../155206402.html


Edited by X-Files, 19 February 2014 - 1704 PM.

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#24 Marek Tucan

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 1754 PM

Seems a truce was established, let's hope it holds up. Hope all my colleagues over there are OK.


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#25 crazyinsane105

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 1818 PM

Funny how I was considering heading to Kiev just a few months ago as part of my world tour. I leave on Friday to Saudi Arabia and then off to Turkey, Greece, and then Portugal. There is a possibility I may head to Simferopol, Ukraine, or even Odessa. A friend's ex-gf wants me to visit her ridiculously gorgeous female companion who probably just wants to marry an American for a free ticket out of Ukraine. If anything I'll take her up on the offer (not the marriage part...the visiting part) and take a tour of Simferopol, but of course I'm staying the hell away from Kiev. 

 

If plans change I'll let you guys know. Not sure if I would call this a civil war yet...Ukrainians seem a lot more tame than the countries in the Middle East. 


Edited by crazyinsane105, 19 February 2014 - 1847 PM.

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#26 X-Files

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 1846 PM

Seems a truce was established, let's hope it holds up. Hope all my colleagues over there are OK.

 

There's always someone that thinks Truce means Reload.

 

Insanity

http://www.slate.com...nstrations.html


Edited by X-Files, 19 February 2014 - 1932 PM.

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#27 Corinthian

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 1944 PM

There was a livestream of the rally yesterday:

 

 

Looked surreal at night with the red flames and smoke, and then rallyists praying the rosary.


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#28 Fritz

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 2007 PM

140219_PHOTO_Kiev_14.jpg.CROP.original-o

 

This guy is taking walting to a whole new level


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#29 swerve

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 2023 PM

Indeed, you have a very good point.

Yes. 

 

Identifying language with ethnicity is inaccurate. So is identifying either language or ethnicity with western/Russian inclination. I think it's more complicated than that.

 

Some Ukrainians want to swing west, some east, Probably, even Russians are divided (remember that a majority of Russians in Latvia voted for independence in the early 1990s: considering oneself Russian does not mean one has to want to be part of the Russian state. I had a long conversation with a Russian in Riga in 1994 who was very pro-Latvian, for example), though in different proportions from Ukrainians. 


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#30 Marek Tucan

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 0542 AM

Seems the truce was broken - reportedly by part of the protesters belonging to the most extreme fraction. Seems it got nasty again, with over 20 dead reported... 

 

EDIT: Re riot police, hard to say if they throw their own or just throw back unbroken protester's molotovs, but anyway it is a clear way to grenades... And then to whoever the army sides with. Reportedly the relieved Chief of Staff was opposed to using army to suppress the protests, so it may indeed turn ugly.


Edited by Marek Tucan , 20 February 2014 - 0544 AM.

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#31 Yama

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 0639 AM

Nope, they were throwing their own. Saw some footage on sky of them throwing an unbroken molotov (not quite sure how one could land unbroken!)


Getting Molotov cocktails to break upon impact can be surprisingly difficult, unless they land squarely, oftentimes they just bounce along without breaking.
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#32 Marek Tucan

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 0742 AM

Especially if their impact is softened for example by landing on a riot shield and sliding down... Some bottles can be quite resistant.


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#33 shep854

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 0850 AM

Molotovs among police. From the Slate site linked above.  After receiving a few of these, the temptation to return the thought would have to be strong.

140219_PHOTO_Kiev_19.jpg.CROP.original-o

http://www.slate.com...nstrations.html


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#34 Marek Tucan

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1032 AM

Is it just me or is this an air pellet rifle?

 

_73112442_2dd8f1ae-7d1d-4eaf-968b-944419

 

(stupid beyond bounds then. Real effect none, fire attracting value way too high)


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#35 X-Files

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1050 AM

Unconfirmed but the story behind this video of police with AKs & sniper rifles: Police confiscated video from a reporter but it was a live stream, that's why you can see it now. Approx. 25 people were killed just today, predominantly by snipers.

 

http://www.radiosvob...o/25270710.html

 

Updated photo postings.

http://trasyy.livejo...om/1294622.html


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#36 X-Files

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1053 AM

Is it just me or is this an air pellet rifle?

 

Pellet rifles

vs. AKs.

 

Bg6PN0CCEAACRk3.jpg

 

Evacuation of wounded. People shot.


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#37 Noble713

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1304 PM

Here's an excellent gallery of pics, many of them with very descriptive captions.  http://zyalt.livejou...com/984735.html

 

Most interesting point: the revolutionaries have a somewhat-established logistical network, with different groups of people regularly tasked with producing Molotov cocktails, supplying food and water to the frontline fighters, supplying chunks of ice as building material for barricades, and breaking bricks/rocks into smaller ones for ammunition. There's also guards who keep the non-combat types away from high-risk areas. Very little looting is occurring, and when it does the looters apparently get their asses beat with a quickness.


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#38 ink

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1439 PM

Most interesting point: the revolutionaries have a somewhat-established logistical network

 

 

 

Strange then that the security forces haven't figured out how to contain the two squares inhabited by protestors and restrict movement in and out. Surely that would be a way to quickly bring the situation to a head.


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#39 BP

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1548 PM

 

Is it just me or is this an air pellet rifle?

 

Pellet rifles

vs. AKs.

 

Bg6PN0CCEAACRk3.jpg

 

Evacuation of wounded. People shot.

 

 

Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?


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#40 X-Files

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1611 PM

 

 

Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

*Bleat* You can't fight tanks with rifles! *Bleat*

 

 

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Fearing that a call for a truce was a ruse, protesters tossed firebombs and advanced upon police lines Thursday in Ukraine's embattled capital. Government snipers shot back and the almost-medieval melee that ensued left at least 70 people dead and hundreds injured, according to a protest doctor.

 

http://news.yahoo.co...-155554941.html


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