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Kiev Is Burning


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#41 crazyinsane105

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1656 PM

From my Russian and Ukrainian friends who have folks Ukraine...apparently snipers have started shooting people at random. A girl I spoke too in Kiev (one that wants me to visit) said outside of independence square, life is perfectly normal and people are minding their own business. So I guess it's pretty hard to say how bad it really is...it still isn't anything bad compared to the uprisings that started in Syria or Libya.


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#42 Marcello

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1746 PM

Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

One might think it would feel good to shoot at government goons, one thing leads to an other and you can end up with a civil war with perhaps an ethnic angle thrown in for good measure. Such things tend to be very unpleasant and one should think long and hard whether it is actually a risk worth taking. Having lots of guns does not automatically bring general  goodness, else Iraq would be Switzerland, it can only back up an already functional political culture.


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#43 X-Files

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1855 PM

From my Russian and Ukrainian friends who have folks Ukraine...apparently snipers have started shooting people at random. A girl I spoke too in Kiev (one that wants me to visit) said outside of independence square, life is perfectly normal and people are minding their own business. So I guess it's pretty hard to say how bad it really is...it still isn't anything bad compared to the uprisings that started in Syria or Libya.

 

KIEV, February 19 (RIA Novosti) – Violent unrest in Ukraine’s capital has spread to other cities in the former Soviet nation, highlighting geographical divisions and raising fears that civil conflict could spin out of control.

Reported disturbances were concentrated in the major cities of the country’s west, the heartland of Ukrainian nationalism, where there is strong backing for anti-government protesters in Kiev, but it also spread to the east where President Viktor Yanukovych draws his support.

In the Ukrainian city of Lviv, near the country’s border with Poland, mobs reportedly seized administrative buildings and set fire to a military base.

“Go out and use your weapons to protect people – your family, your neighbors, your friends,” Lviv Mayor Andrei Sadovy wrote in a Facebook post addressed to security services Wednesday, the UNIAN news agency reported.

“Be aware that a little aggression on your side against the people with be met with a stronger response. It will be impossible to stop,” he wrote.

 

 

http://en.ria.ru/wor...st-Spreads.html


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#44 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 1938 PM

 

Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

One might think it would feel good to shoot at government goons, one thing leads to an other and you can end up with a civil war with perhaps an ethnic angle thrown in for good measure. Such things tend to be very unpleasant and one should think long and hard whether it is actually a risk worth taking. Having lots of guns does not automatically bring general  goodness, else Iraq would be Switzerland, it can only back up an already functional political culture.

 

Government goons act less like government goons when they realize that "the People" will come to their house and kill them, their family, all their friends and then burn down their house. 

 

Switzerland is Switzerland because it's full of Swiss.  Iraq is a shithole because it's full of Iraqis.  Hardware only facilitates "the People" manifesting their culture, as you say.  S/F....Ken M


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#45 Stargrunt6

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 2003 PM

 

Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

One might think it would feel good to shoot at government goons, one thing leads to an other and you can end up with a civil war with perhaps an ethnic angle thrown in for good measure. Such things tend to be very unpleasant and one should think long and hard whether it is actually a risk worth taking. Having lots of guns does not automatically bring general  goodness, else Iraq would be Switzerland, it can only back up an already functional political culture.

 

It's not about feeling good, it's about self-preservation.


Edited by MCab, 20 February 2014 - 2004 PM.

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#46 BP

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 2018 PM

Hah! Another TNer PM'd me about the thread, and I thought, "Feel good to shoot AT government goons...?"

 

No, it would feel good to KILL them: shoot them (not at), invite them to Molotov cocktail hour for some drinks, garrot them with wire strung across urban streets, your mileage may vary. Glad other TNers chimed in first and better.


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#47 Panzermann

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 2109 PM

ukrainian parliament voted against the president and decided to imediately stop the use of lethal force by security services and to stop the anti terrorismn operations. So there seems to still a bit of sense in parliamentarians to stop the madness. We'll see what the president will do.


Rada Obliges Security Service Abolish Planned Antiterrorist Operation, Bans Use Of Fire Arms By Interior Ministry (23:19, Thursday, February 20, 2014) - http://un.ua/eng/article/493192.html
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#48 Marek Tucan

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 0150 AM

The voting was unanimous... Because all the opposition PMs were present, and few of the ruling party - most of the latter were gone. Still, it was more than 50% of the parliament so should be valid. Whether the police will obey is another matter. If yes, there is a chance to de-escalate... If not, it would then depend on the army probably.

 

Reportedly, Kiev airport stopped normal flights and there are a lot of priority private flights heading out. So it may mean the end is near...


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#49 Marek Tucan

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 0227 AM

Apparently some kind of agreement is in works and should be signed later today.


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#50 Marek Tucan

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 0512 AM

The downside of "what if the protesters were armed en masse" would be that 1. there would be much less support and pressure from outside and 2. it would be a perfect case for escalation and sending in tanks. It cuts both ways. If police is faced by an unarmed crowd (or armed with mostly improvised weapons), they have much less motivation and desire to go lethal - but if police would be faced with matched firepower, then it is time to call in the army. And whatever sympathies individual soldiers may have to the cause of protest, it would often evaporate quite quickly under fire. 


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#51 X-Files

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 0640 AM

"It is by no means clear that the army would fight against its own people," said Stephen Blank, a senior fellow with the American Foreign Policy Council.

Ukraine's military leadership has remained largely apolitical and would be wary of getting involved in an internal political crisis. "I think the military wants no part of this," said James Howcroft, a retired Marine intelligence officer and military attaché with extensive experience in the region. "It's a no-win situation."

Even if some commanders did agree to enter the fray, the military would likely fragment and some forces might go over to the opposition, said Adrian Karatnycky, a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council.

 

http://www.usatoday....litary/5654345/

 

 

 

BBC Text Updates

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-26269221


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#52 swerve

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 0859 AM

Interior Ministry troops from western Ukraine have arrived in Kiev - to support the demonstrators. They're reporting to local administrations controlled by opposition parties rather than the Ministry.

 

It looks as if most of the west is no longer under central control.


Edited by swerve, 21 February 2014 - 0901 AM.

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#53 shep854

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 0905 AM

Ukraine news from Military.com:

Hagel Fails To Reach Ukraine Counterpart

http://www.military....html?ESRC=eb.nl

 

----

Ukraine President Announces Early Election

http://www.military....html?ESRC=eb.nl


Edited by shep854, 21 February 2014 - 0907 AM.

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#54 X-Files

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 0928 AM

KIEV, Ukraine — As the center of the Ukrainian capital tipped into a maelstrom of gunfire and blood on Thursday, a man wearing a helmet stood on a street corner near Independence Square, the epicenter of the violence, holding a leaf of printer paper.

“Guys,” he called out, “we are forming a new hundred. Please sign up.”

Anton Chontorog, 23, a computer programmer, joined a small crowd of young men who lined up to enroll in the hundred, the basic organizing unit of a strikingly resilient force that is providing the tip of the spear in the violent showdown with government security forces. The sotni, as the units are called, take their name from a traditional form of Cossack cavalry division. Activists estimate at least 32 such groups are in Kiev now, with more forming all the time.

Mr. Chontorog said that he had been in the square many times as a protester, but that after the violence on Thursday wanted to commit himself to the fight, which meant following orders from the commander of his hundred. “A volunteer just shows up to help,” he said. “The difference is that a member of a hundred has obligations.”

 

 

http://www.nytimes.c...rref=world&_r=0


Edited by X-Files, 21 February 2014 - 0928 AM.

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#55 Marek Tucan

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 1004 AM

one theory is that it comes from "twenty" (one in twenty selected by ballot to be volunteered). There are other explanations.

 

 

OTOH "sotni" literally means "hundreds" (similar to old Cezch expression for a Company, "setnina", and old expression for Captain: "setník", ie centurion)


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#56 Josh

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 1015 AM

A question: isn't this a protest against an elected leader who, by all accounts, won in a fair election? So while there may be some internal strife, isn't it a little weird that the EU or US would give any support to the protestors? So far the police don't seem to be using force out of proportion to the force being applied to them until recently (reports of snipers shooting people). It seems to me to be a purely internal problem with clear side to support.

 

Am I missing something?


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#57 urbanoid

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 1029 AM

Democracy doesn't mean you can do anything you want just because you won elections. Before the protests started it was widely believed in Ukraine that Yanuk will sign an AA with the EU, but he didn't. The new freedom-restricting law passed in January was very much 'Belarusian', though under current agreement it's going to be abolished. Since the beginning every action to bring down the protests was met with adequate reaction from the protesters, who became more and more radicalized as the government was tightening the grip.

 

Also last week Yanuk dismissed the Chief of Staff and anyone with even moderate knowledge about current situation in Ukraine can guess why it happened. Recent decisions made by Ukrainian parliament (ceasing all actions against protesters by the security forces) also somehow give legality to the Maidan, or rather take it away from the executive. (Parliament>President).


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#58 Marek Tucan

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 1052 AM

Ye. Election result is not a carte blanche. Heck the Commie-led government of 1948 was result of reasonably free elections. 

 

And it is not a carte blanche especially when the balance of power is "50:50".


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#59 Marek Tucan

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 1157 AM

Hey, it's pure Ankh-Morpork style democracy! One man - one vote! :)


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#60 rmgill

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 1158 AM

Molotovs among police. From the Slate site linked above.  After receiving a few of these, the temptation to return the thought would have to be strong.

140219_PHOTO_Kiev_19.jpg.CROP.original-o

http://www.slate.com...nstrations.html

Then you shoot the people using the illegal deadly force. (this would go for BOTH sides). 

Any sort of response to illegal actions should be precise, not random unaimed gunfire or return grenades in the general direction. When you take it beyond a precise and scalpel like effect from targeting THE person committing the illegal act that's going to cause deadly harm to someone then you've changed from being police to something else. If you're throwing what amounts to a mass weapon at a mix of folks as a police officer, you've stopped being a cop and started being a soldier in a civil war. 

Watching the videos of the people being shot at, it's pretty clear they're well past "being police" at this point. 


Edited by rmgill, 21 February 2014 - 1200 PM.

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