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#41 BillB

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 0533 AM

I never understood VERITABLE, as it drove into the most difficult terrain in the area. Grenade had much easier terrain.

 

But the forest there have more sandy ground (outside the glacial Reidswald), so they are less muddy and also less hilly than the Huertgen Wald.

Ref the first bit well yes, apart from the dams upstream and the subsequent flooding...  :) 

 

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#42 Markus Becker

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 0715 AM


 


 


 

 

German forests had that effect on invading Legions Divisions.
 
https://en.wikipedia...eutoburg_Forest

Not always.  ;)
 
https://en.wikipedia...ation_Veritable
 
BillB
That was two months before the general capitulation and in flat terrain. 50 meters vs 400 between the low and high points.
 
Indeed. It also involved lots of trees, hence as a response to Doug's reference to the Teutoberger Wald and the effect of German forests on invaders.
 
I also hope you aren't suggesting that somehow the period from Operation VERITABLE to the German surrender was some sort of cakewalk, given that some of the British units involved suffered more casualties in that period than the whole of the time from D Day to that point.
 
BillB
 
 
 
The only common factor are two forrests who are very different. One is on flat ground, the other isn't. Though if one factors in the duration of the battle, the battle in the Reichswald was actually the more costly one. 15k casualties in one month vs. 33k in three months. 
 
Markus, nobody has suggested that the two forests aren't very different apart from you, having walked them both I'm very aware of the differing topography. I was merely responding to a lighthearted comment from Doug, nothing more.  :blink:  
 
Ref the bit about relative casualties, indeed, and that supports my earlier comment about the ferocity of the fighting in the last couple of months of the war, Yes?  :)  
 
BillB


It does indeed.

#43 seahawk

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 0934 AM

 

I never understood VERITABLE, as it drove into the most difficult terrain in the area. Grenade had much easier terrain.

 

But the forest there have more sandy ground (outside the glacial Reidswald), so they are less muddy and also less hilly than the Huertgen Wald.

Ref the first bit well yes, apart from the dams upstream and the subsequent flooding...  :)

 

BillB 

 

 

Was the flooding not natural due to a very wet winter? At least that is what I remember.



#44 Rich

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 1049 AM

 

 

 

 

Ah, and that was the armoured attack through forests that were thought to be impassable to tanks but which were in fact NOT impassable....

 

Something tells me that Churchill's would not have fared too well on the Kall Trail.

 

Having walked the ground at both locations, possibly. OTOH having gone through some of the unit War Diaries, the M4 might not have fared too well in the Reichswald either.  :)

 

BillB

 

 

Having gone through most accounts of the November Hurtgen battle, including the 707th TB records, it seems unlikely. The main problem was the infamous "boulder" on the trail constricting the width at one curve. In backing and filling to get around a couple of tanks lost tracks, and IIRC one slid down the slope. They tried to blast it away, but didn't want to lose what trail they had. I suspect the extra two feet of width in the Churchill would have put paid to that.

 

OTOH, I readily agree the Sherman probably wouldn't have done too well in the Reichswald, where the Churchill was in its element.

 

TBH I was pretty surprised they managed to get tanks down the Kall Trail, and the track marks were still clear when I was there. I suspect the Churchill's extra weight wouldn't have helped either, especially with regard to that dinky bridge over the river...  :unsure:

 

BillB

 

 

TBH in turn, I have never been able to figure out why anyone expected the so-called "plan", such as it was, foisted upon Cota by Gerow, Hodges, and Bradley, to succeed. Three regiments, attacking in three different directions, with three dispersed objectives. Hubris or stupidity? I think a bit of both and mostly generated from Bradley.






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