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Main Gun Ammo - Revisited


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#901 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 0422 AM

Assorted stuff at Seville's military museum, can anyone identify them all?

 

tank_ammo_by_retac21-dbwc2yu.jpg

 

First row: 90mm AP-T, IMI M94 90mm APFSDS for M47, IMI M111 105mm APFSDS, what appears to be a 120mm APFSDS round (DM23?) and a 90mm solid training round.

Second row: round for M106 RL rifle, round for 75mm RL rifle, two 105mm HEAT training rounds. No idea about the smaller rounds


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#902 JWB

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 1249 PM

I think the two small rounds at top right are 2#er and 40mm.


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#903 RETAC21

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 1314 PM

 

Assorted stuff at Seville's military museum, can anyone identify them all?

 

tank_ammo_by_retac21-dbwc2yu.jpg

 

First row: 90mm AP-T, IMI M94 90mm APFSDS for M47, IMI M111 105mm APFSDS, what appears to be a 120mm APFSDS round (DM23?) and a 90mm solid training round.

Second row: round for M106 RL rifle, round for 75mm RL rifle, two 105mm HEAT training rounds. No idea about the smaller rounds

 

 

Oddly enough all the ammo is marked as American...


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#904 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 1528 PM

 

First row: 90mm AP-T, IMI M94 90mm APFSDS for M47, IMI M111 105mm APFSDS, what appears to be a 120mm APFSDS round (DM23?) and a 90mm solid training round.

 

 

Second row: round for M106 RL rifle, round for 75mm RL rifle, two 105mm HEAT training rounds. No idea about the smaller rounds

 

 

Oddly enough all the ammo is marked as American...

 

 

For a long time most of the Spanish tank ammo was US made. The full 105mm HEAT round appears to be a Spanish one, by the way. The M94 and M111 are Israeli but marked in English


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#905 DKTanker

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 1754 PM

Oddly enough all the ammo is marked as American...

The two HEAT rounds don't have US markings, nor do the three APFSDS rounds.


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#906 EvanDP

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 1846 PM

 

Assorted stuff at Seville's military museum, can anyone identify them all?

 

tank_ammo_by_retac21-dbwc2yu.jpg

 

First row: 90mm AP-T, IMI M94 90mm APFSDS for M47, IMI M111 105mm APFSDS, what appears to be a 120mm APFSDS round (DM23?) and a 90mm solid training round.

Second row: round for M106 RL rifle, round for 75mm RL rifle, two 105mm HEAT training rounds. No idea about the smaller rounds

 

Any info on the performance of the IMI M94 90mm APFSDS round and who used it.


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#907 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 1546 PM

Any info on the performance of the IMI M94 90mm APFSDS round and who used it.

 

 

 


 

 

 

 

The M94 was designed for the M36/41 series of 90mm guns as fitted to the M47/48 series. It was another M111 offshoot with the same general design although apparently the complete shot was shorter. Vo was also slightly lower but don't have the data on hand. In Spain it was used by the sizeable M47E fleet to provide a reasonably modern anti tank round, M111 being procured for the upgraded M48A5E1/2. The M111 remains in service to this day


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#908 EvanDP

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 0009 AM

 

Any info on the performance of the IMI M94 90mm APFSDS round and who used it.

 

 

 


 

 

 

 

The M94 was designed for the M36/41 series of 90mm guns as fitted to the M47/48 series. It was another M111 offshoot with the same general design although apparently the complete shot was shorter. Vo was also slightly lower but don't have the data on hand. In Spain it was used by the sizeable M47E fleet to provide a reasonably modern anti tank round, M111 being procured for the upgraded M48A5E1/2. The M111 remains in service to this day

 

Thanks for the info. So I'm assuming good against the frontal aspect of T-54/55/62 and Type 59/69 series of tanks?


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#909 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 1506 PM

Thanks for the info. So I'm assuming good against the frontal aspect of T-54/55/62 and Type 59/69 series of tanks?

My guess it it should have been enough to tackle these. No idea about uparmored T-55 and T-62 with BDD and such arrays. Probably somebody here can do the basic calculations.....


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#910 RETAC21

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 1531 PM

 

Oddly enough all the ammo is marked as American...

The two HEAT rounds don't have US markings, nor do the three APFSDS rounds.

 

 

I meant in the museum lettering not the rounds.


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#911 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 0958 AM

 

I meant in the museum lettering not the rounds.

 

 

Given my experiences with Spanish museums, they could say anything but what they actually are...... 


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#912 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 1818 PM

Just wondering about British service of L52 APDS. Being described as the round from 1970s, does that mean it was actually never used with British Centurions (which were being withdrawn by that time), but rather went to see service as "export" round with foreign 105mm operators?

 

Also, does anybody have suggestions on sources where I can read more on L15 round history, in particular in which years different marks were introduced and vague description of each improvement? I am aware of acute lack of penetration data, so I would be happy with just basic information.


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#913 DKTanker

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 1902 PM

Just wondering about British service of L52 APDS. Being described as the round from 1970s, does that mean it was actually never used with British Centurions (which were being withdrawn by that time), but rather went to see service as "export" round with foreign 105mm operators?

 

Also, does anybody have suggestions on sources where I can read more on L15 round history, in particular in which years different marks were introduced and vague description of each improvement? I am aware of acute lack of penetration data, so I would be happy with just basic information.

The L52 is analogous with the US M728.  The M728/L52 was fielded and uploaded by both USAREUR and Bundeswehr.


Edited by DKTanker, 15 December 2017 - 1902 PM.

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#914 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 1943 PM

The L52 is analogous with the US M728.  The M728/L52 was fielded and uploaded by both USAREUR and Bundeswehr.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. However, M728 came around 1974, while several years long withdraw of Centurion from first line units was pretty much completed by 1973, when The Royal Hussars regiment switched to Chieftain. True enough, Centurions lingered in warehouses for many years afterwards, and I think some batches of L52 were used in Yom Kippur war. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with L52 development history to say if it was actually fielded and used with British units, hence the question.


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#915 Wiedzmin

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 0702 AM

 

Also, does anybody have suggestions on sources where I can read more on L15 round history, in particular in which years different marks were introduced and vague description of each improvement? I am aware of acute lack of penetration data, so I would be happy with just basic information.

maybe this will help

D1B24y6WSbk.jpg


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#916 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 1051 AM

 

The L52 is analogous with the US M728.  The M728/L52 was fielded and uploaded by both USAREUR and Bundeswehr.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. However, M728 came around 1974, while several years long withdraw of Centurion from first line units was pretty much completed by 1973, when The Royal Hussars regiment switched to Chieftain. True enough, Centurions lingered in warehouses for many years afterwards, and I think some batches of L52 were used in Yom Kippur war. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with L52 development history to say if it was actually fielded and used with British units, hence the question.

 

 

Bear in mind, there were Centurions operated by the Royal Artillery for some years as F/O tanks. They were subsequently given to the Royal Engineers to supliment the 165mm guns, and these still retained their 105mm guns. Ive no idea what the ammunition issue was, I suspect mainly HESH, but I would imagine its conceivable in time of conflict they would have had AP rounds. There were of course Australian ones and canadian ones until the late 70s, and they probably used Commonwealth designations.

 

Its interesting to note, ive a M60A1 manual in my collection (I think this was dated late 70's) and it seemed to list British 105mm ammunition in that.  Possibly it was just a reprint of an older manual, ive no idea.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 16 December 2017 - 1052 AM.

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#917 DKTanker

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 1117 AM

Its interesting to note, ive a M60A1 manual in my collection (I think this was dated late 70's) and it seemed to list British 105mm ammunition in that.  Possibly it was just a reprint of an older manual, ive no idea.

 

It was listing the types of ammunition authorized, and I'll bet if you look again you'll read the cautionary note about the British rounds being used only in war emergency and not to remove the clip over the primer until just prior to loading the round into the gun. 


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#918 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 1129 AM

 

Its interesting to note, ive a M60A1 manual in my collection (I think this was dated late 70's) and it seemed to list British 105mm ammunition in that.  Possibly it was just a reprint of an older manual, ive no idea.

 

It was listing the types of ammunition authorized, and I'll bet if you look again you'll read the cautionary note about the British rounds being used only in war emergency and not to remove the clip over the primer until just prior to loading the round into the gun. 

 

 

Ill have to look it out, but yes, Im pretty sure it does actually.


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#919 Sovngard

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 1740 PM

1513463956-15895220-2187249971500140-1471513463958-15895295-2187251898166614-469


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#920 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 0339 AM

 

Also, does anybody have suggestions on sources where I can read more on L15 round history, in particular in which years different marks were introduced and vague description of each improvement? I am aware of acute lack of penetration data, so I would be happy with just basic information.

maybe this will help
D1B24y6WSbk.jpg

 

 
Thank you very much Wiedzmin, that clarifies the thing quite a bit. 

 

Do you possibly have something similar on A4 and A5? I have found tidbits of various reports mentioning A4 in 1968 and 1974, so it followed A3 in service quite soon afterwards, but I don't know much about A5. I gather L15A3, A4 and A5 only differed in the materials, and not in the shape of the penetrator. Not sure how much that influenced the performance.


Edited by Nikolas93TS, 20 December 2017 - 0339 AM.

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