Jump to content


Photo

Storm In A Teacup, Or Rn Vs. Iran


  • Please log in to reply
280 replies to this topic

#261 Nobu

Nobu

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,137 posts

Posted 30 September 2019 - 1403 PM

Doing so would enable Japanese access to the S400 by way of standing good relations with Tehran, which are set to flourish when political and trade restrictions are lifted in the future.
  • 0

#262 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,989 posts

Posted 30 September 2019 - 1436 PM

Doing so would enable Japanese access to the S400 by way of standing good relations with Tehran, which are set to flourish when political and trade restrictions are lifted in the future.

 

Which would put Japan out of the frame for the F-35 and otherwise piss in its most important ally's cornflakes :)


  • 0

#263 glenn239

glenn239

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,437 posts

Posted 30 September 2019 - 1556 PM

Also, Russia could just sell Japan the S-400 directly if Tokyo wanted it.  With the proliferation of drones at the lowest levels, buying this system and related systems might be advisable for all sorts of countries.


  • 0

#264 Nobu

Nobu

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,137 posts

Posted 30 September 2019 - 1644 PM

Such access would neither need to be overt nor require the blessing of any but the parties involved. The goal would not be to copy S400 but to learn how to defeat and incorporate its thought-controlled helmet technology, so to speak.
  • 0

#265 glenn239

glenn239

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,437 posts

Posted 01 October 2019 - 0733 AM

The primary purpose to Japan buying the S-400 would be that Japanese defense officials have realised how vulnerable infastructure is and want a system as quickly as possible that is capable of dealing with cheap drones that even low-level terrorist organisations can now field due to proliferation of the civilian technology.  Then, cooperate with the US to build a next gen system, (the West has neglected this form of air defense and needs a stop gap).  

 

In terms of "defeating" the S-400 system, that's pretty evident.  Hypersonic and low flying cruise missiles that deliver hunting drone swarms to the vicinity of the radar sites; the big weakness to the S-400 family being that they cannot fly.  No need to have or evaluate the S-400 to build that countermeasure.  For SAM systems, the future is more and smaller subcomponents and network systems, more mobility, more attention paid to deceptive measures such as camouflage, more data and sensor fusion, less emphasis on missiles, more emphasis on energy weapons and defensive drones.  


Edited by glenn239, 01 October 2019 - 0733 AM.

  • 0

#266 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,989 posts

Posted 04 October 2019 - 0533 AM

Agreed on all above Glenn. The swarming drones wouldn't even need to be the hunting variety. As long as their INS was given an accurate update close enough to the target they need only each fly to a predesignated location and detonate their warheads. Also S-400 is often paired with Pantsir for its own point defence. It would make sense to defend it with high energy lasers too.


  • 0

#267 glenn239

glenn239

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,437 posts

Posted 04 October 2019 - 0831 AM

I think drones will soon become part of the SAM arsenal, with something like an S-400 acting as air traffic controller for anywhere from a few to several thousand semi-autonomous defensive drones at once. 


Edited by glenn239, 04 October 2019 - 0831 AM.

  • 0

#268 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,989 posts

Posted 05 October 2019 - 0338 AM

Yes, I can see that happening too.
  • 0

#269 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,551 posts

Posted 06 October 2019 - 1336 PM

In terms of "defeating" the S-400 system, that's pretty evident.  Hypersonic and low flying cruise missiles that deliver hunting drone swarms to the vicinity of the radar sites; the big weakness to the S-400 family being that they cannot fly.  No need to have or evaluate the S-400 to build that countermeasure.  For SAM systems, the future is more and smaller subcomponents and network systems, more mobility, more attention paid to deceptive measures such as camouflage, more data and sensor fusion, less emphasis on missiles, more emphasis on energy weapons and defensive drones.  

Primary weakness of S-400 (as well as S-300, S-500 and any other Russian high-performance SAM) is its cost:  even with relatively low workforce cost in Russia, effective design, lower corruption/"lobbying" cost component compared to Western analogues it is still very complex and expensive missiles.  As long as US&Co could afford throwing 100+ cruise missiles on single abandoned building, as demonstrated in Syria - no Russian system could provide  guaranteed protection. And as long as US is printing global reserve currency - they will be able to continue with this tactics in any scale needed. The best tool against S-400 is USD :)


  • 0

#270 Mighty_Zuk

Mighty_Zuk

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 488 posts

Posted 06 October 2019 - 1954 PM

Also, Russia could just sell Japan the S-400 directly if Tokyo wanted it.  With the proliferation of drones at the lowest levels, buying this system and related systems might be advisable for all sorts of countries.


The S-series is political. Just like buying radars or tanks from Russia. It's not capability-driven.
Any western country can very quickly buy a full IADS that would completely cover it from the absolute lowest level to the absolute highest, without even reaching to the eastern market.
  • 0

#271 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 55,303 posts

Posted 07 October 2019 - 0308 AM

I notice even Turkey is trying to back out the S400 deal to get F35 from America.


  • 0

#272 Josh

Josh

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,668 posts

Posted 07 October 2019 - 0705 AM

I notice even Turkey is trying to back out the S400 deal to get F35 from America.


Since when?
  • 0

#273 Adam Peter

Adam Peter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,358 posts

Posted 07 October 2019 - 1230 PM

He needs it to keep the F-35s away from the Presidential Palace.


  • 0

#274 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 55,303 posts

Posted 07 October 2019 - 1243 PM

I notice even Turkey is trying to back out the S400 deal to get F35 from America.


Since when?

Heard it the other day, might have been on world service.
  • 0

#275 glenn239

glenn239

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,437 posts

Posted 07 October 2019 - 1330 PM

He needs it to keep the F-35s away from the Presidential Palace.

 

https://www.csis.org...-s-400-decision

 

Coup-Proofing?  Making Sense of Turkey's S-400 Decision.


  • 0

#276 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,171 posts

Posted 31 October 2019 - 0748 AM

Turkey S-400 might be activated before end of the year.

https://www.military...n-official.html

 

Turkey and Russia in "advance stage" of negotiations for SU-35.

https://www.defensen...su-35-jet-deal/


  • 0

#277 lucklucky

lucklucky

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,707 posts

Posted 02 November 2019 - 1810 PM

Hitting commercial grade drones with S-400 any country will bankrupt in short term. Something akin the Israeli Iron Dome would be more feasible.


  • 0

#278 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 55,303 posts

Posted 04 November 2019 - 0314 AM

I was reading an interesting article the other day, saying the Russians had embedded virus's in radios they sold to the Ukraine prewar, which they activated via radio signals. You kind of wonder if they put any similar time bombs in S400.


  • 0

#279 glenn239

glenn239

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,437 posts

Posted 04 November 2019 - 0904 AM

AFAIK, S-400 isn't currently designed to deal with swarms of commerical grade drones, but action in Syria is giving S-400 designers ample hands-on experience.  In terms of embedding viruses in foreign equipment sales, the up side of that is that it might be tactically useful.  The downside is that it can effect global arms sales.  Probably best not to do any such thing in most cases.  For example, Ukraine's S-300 force has been modernized with no apparent indication of viruses.  


Edited by glenn239, 04 November 2019 - 0904 AM.

  • 0

#280 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,775 posts

Posted 04 November 2019 - 1210 PM

S-400 is a part of the system. It is not equipped to deal with drones, cause lower levels (Tor and Pantsir) are.


  • 0