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The Great Camo Boondoggle


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#341 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 0834 AM

 

US Navy Testing 2-Piece FR Uniforms

 

Referred to as the Maritime Heritage Maritime Utility, the US Navy is currently testing 2-piece Flame Resistant garments for wear underway, in lieu of the current Coverall, which is also undergoing an FR makeover.

 

img_1004.jpg

 

Testing began 14 May but the concept has been on the drawing board since last year. The Heritage variants replicate traditional sea service uniforms, with a Khaki shirt and pant for Officers and Chiefs and a Blue version for lower enlisted and noncommissioned Sailors.

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Interestingly, the Blue version is similar in appearance to the old Dungarees, but one style harkens all the way back to the Dark Blue on Dark Blue of enlisted deck wear, worn up until WWII. Another option, replaces the Dark Blue shirt with a Light Blue, similar to the Chambray shirts worn until the advent of the current Navy Working Uniform.

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Below, you can see all three options currently being evaluated.

 

img_1003.jpg

 

The piece concludes with a look at a new uniform under evaluation by the Royal Canadian Navy:

 

img_1014.jpg


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#342 shep854

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 0849 AM

Sad.  OD really is the closest to a univeral pattern, especially after a bit of fading.

----

Zoomies, back to buying the Army fatigues.  That's gotta sting in some circles. :P


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#343 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 1924 PM

The Israeli pattern looks a lot like Flecktarn which isn't a great pattern when seen from longer ranges where it tends to merge.
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#344 Dawes

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 2202 PM

I guess Hell really has frozen over.


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#345 bojan

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 0920 AM

Israelis adopted cammo before, French "lizard" pattern in 1950s and US woodland in 1990s but never really issued it (IIRC only Paras actually used lizard, and woodland was and still is used sometimes during training)..


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#346 Panzermann

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 0707 AM

Israelis adopted cammo before, French "lizard" pattern in 1950s and US woodland in 1990s but never really issued it (IIRC only Paras actually used lizard, and woodland was and still is used sometimes during training)..

 

For Opfor mostly, because pretty  much all the neighbours imitated the USA. One of the reasons why they stuck with unicolor for IFF purposes. Well and price of course.

 

 

The old  6-color desert pattern and other patterns have been worn by recce elements. But those were unit purchases I think.

 

I think tent halves and the clownhat helmet covers are also printed in camo patterns. So there was never no camouflage issued. Just now they look into issueing it as basic field dress. Though with all the legacy OD pouches and vests etc. it is a bit pointless, when the fancy new camo pattern is covered by old OD gear. ;)

 

 

The biggest factor is behaviour anyway to conceal yourself. not standing in the open, not on hilltops etc. etc.

 

 

 

The Israeli pattern looks a lot like Flecktarn which isn't a great pattern when seen from longer ranges where it tends to merge.

 

 

All patterns do this depending on the size of the pattern at different distances. See e.g. the diference in personal clothing patterns and vehicle paint patterns. As how not to do it look at the in some countries fashionable vinyl wrapped cars used by mil/leo, taht use the same pattern in hte same size as the issued uniforms. wich just does not work on an object in vehicle size.

 

4JSuUpT.jpg

 

Kuwaiti police VBL.

 

apart from the colour choice, the pattern does naught to break up the vehicle lines and when you step back from your monitor it starts to blur into each other.

 

 

edit: an interesting case is the desert CADPAT which is printed enlarged comapred to the green pattern to adjust for the higher view distances in open desert.

 

 

so yes of course Flecktarn starts to blur into each other, but it depends on the distance. When walking past fellow soldiers I have missed them lying on the ground. Jsut so without any camo netting or anything. they had just dropped down to secure the 360. In German forests it works definitely. I am not so convinced of the arid Flecktarn patterns at the moment.

 

 

 

edit2: the also have ugly HMMWV:

 

koweit16.jpg


Edited by Panzermann, 29 June 2018 - 0722 AM.

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#347 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 1535 PM

Being an airgun hunter at the time, which was before the wave of commercial cammos, I saw Flecktarn in use c 1988/9. A friend at SCRDE, a UK defence establishment had some on hand to make into an outfit for paintballing. Flecktarn was astonishingly effective at very close ranges in deciduous woodland at our club. It did, however, do a much worse job of breaking up outline at longer range than DPM or US woodland. US woodland suffered from having elements that were too rounded/lobed. Nature tends to be much more random. In my opinion, British DPM was really excellent for temperate zone use other than in winter. MTP is better, but could probably do with more green in it for European NATO terrain.
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#348 lastdingo

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 0329 AM

defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2018/05/individual-visible-spectrum-camouflage.html

and

 
Have a look at this:

It shows the demonstration rigging that camouflage advertisers are using (matching the background to the product), but it also shows the difference between micropattern and macropattern. 
Multisorb has - in the context of a VBL armoured car - micropatterns only while the comparison VBL has a three colour paint scheme that's nothing but a break-up macropattern.
The paint scheme is meant to break up the silhouette on a less homogenous background at long distances (much more than 500 m), while Multisorb's micropatterns look suitable for much shorter distances.
At very long distances the paint will be a better camouflage on light backgrounds and the darker Multisorb a better camouflage on dark backgrounds (brightness difference to background, not colours, matter at long distances).
Such textile covers are pretty good as IR camouflage and can also reduce the distance at which battlefield surveillance and airborne GMTI radars can detect the vehicle, while their optical camouflage effect is debatable. 
 
The annoying thing about that presentation of Multisorb is that they could easily have designed the product to have both micropatterns and macropattern.
 

 

The problem of patterns merging into a single colour blob exists because of physics (optics, including how our eyes work / the size of our eyes) and because patterns are usually optimised for one or two approximate distances (distance bands). Patterns that use macropattern AND micropattern are optimised for two distance bands, and still fail to do the trick at all other distances. All patterns merge into a blob at some really long distance, and then it's not even about colours, but about whether the camouflaged object is brighter or darker than the background. That's when you need Yehudi lights for camouflage effect.

 

Individual camouflage design should thus be driven by doctrine:

  • what terrains to fight on (drives the choice of colour palette)
  • what combat ranges are deemed relevant (drives the scaling of micropatterns and macropatterns to cover much of those distances well, and no other distances)

 

The horrible "quality" of many if not most camouflage patterns used by troops and land forces vehicles (especially Marines) is undeniable evidence that armed forces are far from infallible even in areas where they're supposed to be ultra-competent.


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#349 Panzermann

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 1346 PM

Being an airgun hunter at the time, which was before the wave of commercial cammos, I saw Flecktarn in use c 1988/9. A friend at SCRDE, a UK defence establishment had some on hand to make into an outfit for paintballing. Flecktarn was astonishingly effective at very close ranges in deciduous woodland at our club. It did, however, do a much worse job of breaking up outline at longer range than DPM or US woodland. US woodland suffered from having elements that were too rounded/lobed. Nature tends to be much more random. In my opinion, British DPM was really excellent for temperate zone use other than in winter. MTP is better, but could probably do with more green in it for European NATO terrain.

 

Yes. when the first of the Queen's men started running around Germany in their new No.8 they immidately stood out like sore thumbs in the greens around here. Old DPM is a wonderfully effective pattern. either in dutch or Brtish flavours. I doubt there is much difference betwwen teh two.

 

MTP just like Multicam (or the new US Army Scorpion W2) are just too brown. Good for Spain or Greece (or Afghanistan), but sucks mule balls in the green forests north of the Alps.


Edited by Panzermann, 05 July 2018 - 1349 PM.

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#350 Chris Werb

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 1515 PM

Yes, MTP is too brown for those environments, but, even the very wet virtually treeless northern environment that I live in has a lot of brown in it, especially when the grasses and weeds dry out and die late in summer through to spring.
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#351 Panzermann

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 0805 AM

It is not only brown, it is mostly light brown tones and in hte washing machine the printing fades inevitably.


 

Sad.  OD really is the closest to a univeral pattern, especially after a bit of fading.
----

 
it is a troop trial. I put my money on it being binned for budgetary reasons. Part of the trial is also modern fabrics against heat and impregnations against infrared and image intensifiers.
 
I put my money on it costs too much for a conscript army on a budget.

Edited by Panzermann, 07 July 2018 - 0806 AM.

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#352 Dawes

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 1132 AM

+1 on the older British DPM:

 

QYlne0el.jpg


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#353 shep854

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 1402 PM

+2. Best-looking temperate pattern of them alland as pointed out, it works!
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#354 Chris Werb

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 1901 PM

MTP/Multicam really is eerily good at breaking up the human form compared to DPM though.

 

These (slightly Walty) videos do a good job of comparing MTP, DPM and Flecktarn in a variety of deciduous woodland settings.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH6KvqN4UhE


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#355 Dawes

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 1924 PM

To our UK folks regarding the above picture taken from "The Wild Geese", are those actual military ranks being worn or just creations for the film?


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#356 shep854

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 1941 PM

Note that Brent0331 (A Marine infantry Gunnery Sergeant, BTW) is in rather light-colored Texas brush country.  In the deciduous woodland of central Alabama where I live, the DPM and other darker patterns would blend much better.


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#357 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 1802 PM

Note that Brent0331 (A Marine infantry Gunnery Sergeant, BTW) is in rather light-colored Texas brush country.  In the deciduous woodland of central Alabama where I live, the DPM and other darker patterns would blend much better.

 

The problem is that an army is only going to issue one type of uniform for both of those terrain type (special forces excepted).  So what would a good compromise look like?


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#358 Colin

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 1806 PM

To our UK folks regarding the above picture taken from "The Wild Geese", are those actual military ranks being worn or just creations for the film?

britarmyranks.gif​


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#359 lastdingo

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 1817 PM

 

Note that Brent0331 (A Marine infantry Gunnery Sergeant, BTW) is in rather light-colored Texas brush country.  In the deciduous woodland of central Alabama where I live, the DPM and other darker patterns would blend much better.

 

The problem is that an army is only going to issue one type of uniform for both of those terrain type (special forces excepted).  So what would a good compromise look like?

 

 

There's the ancient answer of printing both sides of a fabric differently. This was figured out (how to do) in the 1920's.

You would need to use a compromise pattern or colour for all that dangling gear (pouches, belt and so on) and for gloves, though.

 

Another approach is to simply not trust camouflage patterns and to issue but a basic pattern and convince everybody that additional, terrain-adapted camouflage measures have to be taken.

The use of nothing but factory-made camouflage patterns is for non-combat, non-recce troops.


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#360 Panzermann

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 1446 PM

 

To our UK folks regarding the above picture taken from "The Wild Geese", are those actual military ranks being worn or just creations for the film?

britarmyranks.gif​

 

 

The rank insignia is inspired by the british ones, but took liberties. e.g. Colonel Faulkner has three stars and a bar to indicate his rank instead of a crown.. Makes sense as they were not fighting for the queen.


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