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1960's Combined Arms Tactics


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#41 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 0537 AM

That is really interesting, thank you. The only thing I find a bit off is that my understanding is the Humber Pig came along later than the Saracen and was purchased because we could not afford enough Saracens and the 4x4 was good enough for a variety of roles. The Pig actually outlived the Saracen in British Army service thanks to events in Ulster (some allegedly had to be bought back from scrap yards and out back into service). With BREXIT looming, I hope we have hung on to plenty of MRAPs as we may soon need them in Ulster.
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#42 WRW

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 0617 AM

Was APC work in NI from RLC or some Cavalry guys - or both ?

 

In Iraq anf Afgh I think te driving was outsourced from the infantry

did not the RM provide a dedicated unit of RAM Armoured group (not sure of correct title?


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#43 FLOZi

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 0650 AM

That is really interesting, thank you. The only thing I find a bit off is that my understanding is the Humber Pig came along later than the Saracen and was purchased because we could not afford enough Saracens and the 4x4 was good enough for a variety of roles. The Pig actually outlived the Saracen in British Army service thanks to events in Ulster (some allegedly had to be bought back from scrap yards and out back into service). With BREXIT looming, I hope we have hung on to plenty of MRAPs as we may soon need them in Ulster.

 

This is specifically BAOR, my understanding is that early Saracens were prioritised for Malaya.


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#44 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 0655 AM

Yeah, they rushed it into service for Malaya, which is why it was apparently unreliable in the early days.


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#45 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 0947 AM

That's my understanding too Stuart. Were Pigs ever used in Malaya? I've never seen a photo of one there. I think they were primarily BAOR, but there are photos of them in sunnier climes.


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#46 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1005 AM

Dipping into Hansard, a discussion on 3rd March 1959 on the 1959-60 defence estimates has (1000!) Pigs being produced after all Saracens then on order had been delivered and all BAOR infantry in armoured brigades equipped with them.


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#47 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1035 AM

You wonder if they envisaged them for internal security work even then.
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#48 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1205 PM

You wonder if they envisaged them for internal security work even then.

 

Yes, to support the civil power in a post nuclear exchange scenario. They would have been ordered c. 1955/6 when many of the AA units disbanded when AA Command was axed re-roled into what were effectively internal security battalions - I can't remember the actual designation now.

 

Late edit. It was called the Mobile Defence Corps - it was disbanded in 1959. 


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#49 WRW

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 1404 PM

the knowledge of people on this site never ceases to amaze me - never heard of the Mobile Defence Corps. Much appreciated


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#50 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 1433 PM

the knowledge of people on this site never ceases to amaze me - never heard of the Mobile Defence Corps. Much appreciated

 

The one tonners being allocated to the MDC was an assumption on my part, but it fits the timeline.


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#51 Rick

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 1949 PM

the knowledge of people on this site never ceases to amaze me - never heard of the Mobile Defence Corps. Much appreciated

Could of been called worse. Maybe "The Mobile Infantry?" Now that would bug me  :D


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#52 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 2012 PM

 

the knowledge of people on this site never ceases to amaze me - never heard of the Mobile Defence Corps. Much appreciated

Could of been called worse. Maybe "The Mobile Infantry?" Now that would bug me  :D

 

 

That would have cut down dramatically on the cost of training. I think the average age was meant to be in the 35-50 range though which is a bit lower than the cast of the execrable Verhoeven movie  :)


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#53 Colin

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 2116 PM

Not sure when the Malaysian got the Sanky, but they also used armoured CMP's 

 

1280px-Kuala-Lumpur_Malaysia_Police-Muse​


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#54 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 0226 AM

Ive always liked Saxon's. It was an unreliable thing as things went, but it had a certain gravitas about them. And I suspect would convert into an excellent mobile home.


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#55 WRW

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 1058 AM

Some Saxon were donated to Ukraine I think

 

remember seeing a few not very complimentary videos - not the most agile


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#56 Chris Werb

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 1209 PM

Some Saxon were donated to Ukraine I think

 

 

With artillery fire control systems IIRC.


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#57 WRW

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 1226 PM

 

Some Saxon were donated to Ukraine I think

 

 

With artillery fire control systems IIRC.

 

could be - what I saw were having problems with not so bumps on roads and paths

 

 

found it https://www.youtube....h?v=CmauH9R_q3o - maybe driver problem??


Edited by WRW, 05 September 2019 - 1256 PM.

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#58 FLOZi

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 0649 AM

I found an excellent analysis of the history of British mechanized infantry, one small issue, it is in Finnish:

 

https://www.doria.fi....pdf?sequence=2

 

The diagram presented in it (Figure (Kuva) 4 page 39) is from 'Notes On The British Army (1968)' https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/

 

I also found this advert https://www.alamy.co...t-85315923.html... Somehow I doubt all support platoons had 12 (!) VIGILANT launchers! Especially as the 1968 orbat above shows Vigilant in a separate battalion level platoon with just 6 launchers, transported by land rover.


Edited by FLOZi, 06 October 2019 - 0652 AM.

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#59 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 0654 AM

Quite often in later years, many of the Milan firing posts were mobilization only formations. They may have done the same with Vigilant.


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#60 GJK

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 0230 AM

I found an excellent analysis of the history of British mechanized infantry, one small issue, it is in Finnish:
 
https://www.doria.fi....pdf?sequence=2
 
The diagram presented in it (Figure (Kuva) 4 page 39) is from 'Notes On The British Army (1968)' https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/
 
I also found this advert https://www.alamy.co...t-85315923.html... Somehow I doubt all support platoons had 12 (!) VIGILANT launchers! Especially as the 1968 orbat above shows Vigilant in a separate battalion level platoon with just 6 launchers, transported by land rover.


Thanks for this, most interesting.

12 VIGILANT launchers does not sound so extreme when you consider that a late Cold War mechanized or armoured infantry battalion had 24 MILAN firing posts. Would be interesting to know how many WOMBATs a battalion had before MILAN.

Best,

Greg.
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