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MidwayŚ77 Years Ago, Today.


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#901 Colin

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 1304 PM

Had that guy known his picture would be all over the internet, he would have worn a nicer sweater without a big hole in it. the feed system was designed by a cigarette packaging company, the same one that invented the hard paper package with the flip up lid.


Edited by Colin, 22 August 2019 - 1306 PM.

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#902 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 0210 AM

How accurate was that?

 

This one was armed with a 3 pounder originally, I dont know what the rate of fire was like.


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#903 DougRichards

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 0536 AM

How accurate was that?

 

This one was armed with a 3 pounder originally, I dont know what the rate of fire was like.

 

Wiki indicates around 20-25 rpm, a little short of that German Navy's 37mm 30rpm.  Lower MV of course but heavier shell.


Edited by DougRichards, 23 August 2019 - 0537 AM.

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#904 MiloMorai

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 0548 AM

Didn't some late war British MGB get 6pdrs?


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#905 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 0550 AM

Yeah, thats one on the previous page.


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#906 Burncycle360

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 1621 PM

The 6 pdrs could shoot pretty quick



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#907 lastdingo

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 0712 AM

Yeah, I've red about the success of British MGBs a lot, but then again, I also read that the actually quite few German Schnellboote operated and sunk ships in the Channel even while 6,000 hostile tactical aircraft were operating in the sky above and 1,000+ hostile warships operated in the Channel.

Whatever success the MGBs had must have been rather isolated incidents.

 

There were 15 pre-war and 216 wartime production Schnellboote (Englishmen called them E-boats).

 

Guess how many survived the war, then mark the next line.

here  --->   91   <---


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#908 DougRichards

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 0821 AM

Yeah, I've red about the success of British MGBs a lot, but then again, I also read that the actually quite few German Schnellboote operated and sunk ships in the Channel even while 6,000 hostile tactical aircraft were operating in the sky above and 1,000+ hostile warships operated in the Channel.

Whatever success the MGBs had must have been rather isolated incidents.

 

There were 15 pre-war and 216 wartime production Schnellboote (Englishmen called them E-boats).

 

Guess how many survived the war, then mark the next line.

here  --->   91   <---

 

I don't think that anyone would argue that they were not good boats, and most would accept that they were probably better than their British (and US) equivalents.  It was only with radar being available to the allied boats that the German boats lost some effectiveness.


Edited by DougRichards, 26 August 2019 - 0043 AM.

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#909 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 0826 AM

Well there was a handful that was used  by the German coastguard or some non military organization. They were using them for agent running behind the Iron curtain on behalf of MI6. One of them, a veteran of the Slapton Sands disaster, still survives in England.

 

This is interesting.


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#910 MiloMorai

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 0920 AM

#321 is a 77' Elco. Retained by the USN as PT 63


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#911 Markus Becker

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 1236 PM

Yeah, I've red about the success of British MGBs a lot, but then again, I also read that the actually quite few German Schnellboote operated and sunk ships in the Channel even while 6,000 hostile tactical aircraft were operating in the sky above and 1,000+ hostile warships operated in the Channel.
Whatever success the MGBs had must have been rather isolated incidents.
 


Fear of friendly fire: "That's probably just a MTB, MGB, PT boat that's ignoring regulations. What are the odds its German? ... Ups!"
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#912 Burncycle360

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 1747 PM

Always felt a near ideal general purpose MTB or MGB (for either side of the war) would have looked a lot like an E-Boat / S100 -- for the Atlantic they were able to operate at high speed in sea states the PT boats couldn't get on plane, and in the Pacific they had far greater range and endurance than the PT boats and would have been right at home among the islands in Guadalcanal
 


Edited by Burncycle360, 25 August 2019 - 1752 PM.

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#913 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0135 AM

The Swedes postwar also built a good selection of high speed watercraft. I gather the USN (or was it the US Army?) bought a number of them up for operations off the coast of Vietnam.


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#914 Colin

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0140 AM

The British answer to the E-boats were the Fairmiles, although they were pure gun boats


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#915 RETAC21

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0159 AM

Always felt a near ideal general purpose MTB or MGB (for either side of the war) would have looked a lot like an E-Boat / S100 -- for the Atlantic they were able to operate at high speed in sea states the PT boats couldn't get on plane, and in the Pacific they had far greater range and endurance than the PT boats and would have been right at home among the islands in Guadalcanal
 

 

Size vs visibility was an issue as was engine power, the larger the boat, the slower and more visible it's going to be and as the size groe, you end up with a corvette (witness the evolution of the Israeli missile boats, for example). In WW2 the S-boats were larger than the other nations boats but their successes came mainly by the unpreparedness and/or lack of training of their enemies (ie Exercise Tiger - where the escorts were pulled out of Atlantic escort duty).

 

By 1944 the counter was the aircraft and the operations were restricted to night minelaying mainly.

 

Also there was overclaiming and ships that grew in the mind of the S-boats commanders from 100s grt to 1000s grt, so they were useful to have but not very cost effective, so resources would have been better spent on more R boats.


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#916 DougRichards

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0430 AM

The British answer to the E-boats were the Fairmiles, although they were pure gun boats

 

And the handfull of steam gun boats that were the result of a British deficiency in high capacity diesels.

 

Some Fairmilles were MGB, others were MTB, whilst some were both, with a compromise in armament.

 

Of course what were the intended targets played a role, after all, after late 1943 how much German channel traffic was there for MTBs to sink?


Edited by DougRichards, 26 August 2019 - 0434 AM.

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#917 Rick

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0447 AM

Always felt a near ideal general purpose MTB or MGB (for either side of the war) would have looked a lot like an E-Boat / S100 -- for the Atlantic they were able to operate at high speed in sea states the PT boats couldn't get on plane, and in the Pacific they had far greater range and endurance than the PT boats and would have been right at home among the islands in Guadalcanal
 

A problem USN PT boats had in the Solomon Islands were phosphorescent wakes at night. Made it easier for IJN planes. 


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#918 Colin

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 1247 PM

 

The British answer to the E-boats were the Fairmiles, although they were pure gun boats

 

And the handfull of steam gun boats that were the result of a British deficiency in high capacity diesels.

 

Some Fairmilles were MGB, others were MTB, whilst some were both, with a compromise in armament.

 

Of course what were the intended targets played a role, after all, after late 1943 how much German channel traffic was there for MTBs to sink?

 

very true, the Germans also used shallow draft barges that torps ran under. Generally the MGB's and Fairmiles provided cover for the MTB's.


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#919 Ken Estes

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 1312 PM

The Swedes postwar also built a good selection of high speed watercraft. I gather the USN (or was it the US Army?) bought a number of them up for operations off the coast of Vietnam.

 

20 of the Norwegian Nasty class PTF were built for the USN, of which six were built at Annapolis MD by Trumpy Boat Works. They rendered good service and the builders and crew were impressed by the Napier Deltic turbo-diesels. I watched four built across the Annapolis Harbor from the Naval Academy in the late 60s. All were used by SEALs and SF.


Edited by Ken Estes, 26 August 2019 - 1316 PM.

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#920 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 1405 PM

Norwegian, my bad.

Read about them in a book on SOG. They were running a disinformation effort using them.
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