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History of Soviet tanks


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#6221 Jim Warford

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 2111 PM

The SU-122-54 was certainly not equipped with a stabilizer. That also gives little/no benefit in a casemate armament. Then the use of a tank destroyer is rarely in an "raid" attack over free field.

 

Well, some sources say otherwise...they report that the SU-122-54 did have single-plane stabilization. Based on what I've been able to dig-up, this Assault Gun/Tank Destroyer had the latest tank/AFV technology for the time. It's also true that the tactics intended for the SU-122-54 were not traditional tactics as seen during almost all of WWII. The guns were organic to MRRs and were intended to have a much more mobile and offensive role. Based on lessons learned from the fighting against Japanese forces in Manchuria, the SU-122-54s would be part of "Fire Teams" or "Forward Detachments" during offensive operations.


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#6222 Jim Warford

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 2122 PM

I know very little about the SU-122-54, but I'd wager that the D-49 was not based on the D-25TS but was instead related to the D-25TA. Late production D-25TA guns (1956-1957) had fume extractors, as seen on the T-10 obr. 1956 that took part in the 1957 October Revolution parade. These photos show this particular modification of the T-10.

 

t-10a%2Bparade.jpg

 

late%2Bmodel%2Bt-10%2Bwith%2Bd-25ts.jpg

 

red%2Boctober%2Bparade.jpg

 

Interlinked; thanks for the info...it's possible that the D-49 was more closely related to the D-25TA (with bore evacuator), than the D-25TS. In my research, it was a bit challenging to say for sure. Even the exact differences between the D-25TA and D-25TS weren't completely clear. Tracking the ammo has also been a bit challenging as well...      


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#6223 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 0144 AM

These meanings are known:

 

T = tank gun

S = stabilized

A = ?

 

TS = tank gun, stabilized


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#6224 Hakka

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 0219 AM

And the "S" suffix also refers to guns for a casemate mount such as D-10S.
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#6225 bojan

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 0500 AM

But is directly after number in that case.
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#6226 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 0546 AM

Google ...

 

A-19 = 122 mm field cannon, the initial model

A-19S = 122 mm self propelled gun ISU-122

 

Development work (construktion bureau of "Zavod Nr. 9", Ekaterinburg) with 122 mm cannons A-19 as version for tanks under Index D-2 (with  KV-85 type cradle)

Development work (construktion bureau of "Zavod Nr. 172", Perm) with 122 mm cannons A-19 as version for tanks under Index D-5 (with muzzle break)

 

D- 2+5 = D-25 ... :)

 

D-25T  = tank gun (IS-2)

D-25TA = tank gun, modified, stabilized (T-10) (with loading tray and firing pin re-tensioner)

D-25TS = tank gun, modified, stabilized (T-10M)

 

https://ru.wikipedia...

 

http://www.dogswar.r...eznye-tank.html


Edited by Stefan Kotsch, 16 August 2019 - 0605 AM.

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#6227 DogDodger

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 1920 PM

It's a quote and a drawing from (an article I published two weeks ago). I was just wondering if it was featured in some kind of book or something. I'm rather proud of this particular article.

Glad to see another article. Was that a Dr. William Atwater reference slipped in there? ;)

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#6228 Interlinked

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 2017 PM

It's a quote and a drawing from (an article I published two weeks ago). I was just wondering if it was featured in some kind of book or something. I'm rather proud of this particular article.

Glad to see another article. Was that a Dr. William Atwater reference slipped in there? ;)

Nicely spotted ;) I love slipping in these little phrases
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#6229 Jim Warford

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 0036 AM

Google ...

 

A-19 = 122 mm field cannon, the initial model

A-19S = 122 mm self propelled gun ISU-122

 

Development work (construktion bureau of "Zavod Nr. 9", Ekaterinburg) with 122 mm cannons A-19 as version for tanks under Index D-2 (with  KV-85 type cradle)

Development work (construktion bureau of "Zavod Nr. 172", Perm) with 122 mm cannons A-19 as version for tanks under Index D-5 (with muzzle break)

 

D- 2+5 = D-25 ... :)

 

D-25T  = tank gun (IS-2)

D-25TA = tank gun, modified, stabilized (T-10) (with loading tray and firing pin re-tensioner)

D-25TS = tank gun, modified, stabilized (T-10M)

 

https://ru.wikipedia...

 

http://www.dogswar.r...eznye-tank.html

 

As with so many things Soviet, there are frequently variables and exceptions involved when trying to pin-down definitive designations. It seems that the D-25TA, D-25TS, and D-49 all had the rigid-chain rammer and were stabilized...I've seen it reported that the D-25TA had single-plane stabilization while both the D-25TS and the M62T2 had double-plane stabilization. The gun on the T-10M was actually the M62T2 not the D-25TS...    


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#6230 Jim Warford

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 0051 AM

 

It looks like a technical army manual.


It's a quote and a drawing from (an article I published two weeks ago). I was just wondering if it was featured in some kind of book or something. I'm rather proud of this particular article.

 

 

Interlinked; just to clarify things, your article has the quote (shown below) that ties the D-49 to the D-25TS...did you mean to say the tie is actually with the D-25TA?  

 

"The D-49 gun installed in the SU-122-54 casemate tank destroyer was essentially a D-25TS gun on a different cradle, configured to swivel in both axes."
 


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#6231 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 0233 AM

The gun on the T-10M was actually the M62T2 not the D-25TS...

Yes, that's correct.

And according to "Soviet T-10 Heavy Tank and Variants" from Stephen Sewell:

T-10 - D-25TA; not stabilized; gunners primary sight: TSh-2-27
T-10A - D-25TS; stabilized in vertical; gunners primary sight: TPS-1 (LOS vertical stabilized)
T-10B - D-25TS; stabilized in 2 axis; gunners primary sight: TPS-1 (LOS vertical stabilized)
T-10M - M-62T2; stabilized in 2 axis; gunners primary sight: T2S-29-49 (LOS stabilized in 2 axis)

WiKi Russia seems to confirm that

https://ru.wikipedia....org/wiki/ΠΆ-10


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#6232 Interlinked

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 0400 AM


 

It looks like a technical army manual.

It's a quote and a drawing from (an article I published two weeks ago). I was just wondering if it was featured in some kind of book or something. I'm rather proud of this particular article.
 
 
Interlinked; just to clarify things, your article has the quote (shown below) that ties the D-49 to the D-25TS...did you mean to say the tie is actually with the D-25TA?  
 
"
The D-49 gun installed in the SU-122-54 casemate tank destroyer was essentially a D-25TS gun on a different cradle, configured to swivel in both axes."

 
I don't know, actually. I just wrote that based on what you've said in this forum hahaha

Like I said, I really know very little about the SU-122-54. My personal opinion is that the D-49 was developed together with the D-25TA and shares much more in common with that than with the D-25TS.

To answer one of your earlier comments: among the differences between the D-25TS and the D-25TA (that I'm sure of) was the addition of the mounting brackets for some stabilizer components underneath the gun cradle. This shifted the center of gravity a bit to the rear, so the gun cradle had to be modified accordingly. Another difference is that the D-25TS was connected to the TPS1 sight using a parallelogram linkage. The D-25TA had a direct coaxial connection to the articulated telescope head of the TSh2-27 sight. The D-25TS also had an electronic firing mechanism linked to the stabilizer that worked with the GUV-7 electric primer whereas the D-25TA only had a solenoid-actuated firing pin.

Personally, I doubt that the SU-122-54 had a gun stabilizer which makes it hard to believe that the D-49 is based on the D-25TS. Plus, the SU-122-54 used the articulated telescopic TSh2-22 sight so that's another design aspect the D-49 shares with the D-25TA. However, my personal suspicions doesn't count as a source, so I deferred to you instead.

I'll do some reading on the subject and if I come up with anything interesting, I'll update the article.

Edited by Interlinked, 18 August 2019 - 0502 AM.

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#6233 Wiedzmin

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 0607 AM

T-34 night vision  for driving, 1942.

 

k66z0PxSHBc.jpg


Edited by Wiedzmin, 18 August 2019 - 0641 AM.

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#6234 Wiedzmin

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 0034 AM

Pid9H98V8sw.jpg
eVHe5h2Bbj0.jpg

 

T-90A turret, it was posted earlier 


Edited by Wiedzmin, 19 August 2019 - 0125 AM.

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#6235 Jim Warford

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 2228 PM

 

 

 

It looks like a technical army manual.

It's a quote and a drawing from (an article I published two weeks ago). I was just wondering if it was featured in some kind of book or something. I'm rather proud of this particular article.
 
 
Interlinked; just to clarify things, your article has the quote (shown below) that ties the D-49 to the D-25TS...did you mean to say the tie is actually with the D-25TA?  
 
"
The D-49 gun installed in the SU-122-54 casemate tank destroyer was essentially a D-25TS gun on a different cradle, configured to swivel in both axes."
 
I don't know, actually. I just wrote that based on what you've said in this forum hahaha

Like I said, I really know very little about the SU-122-54. My personal opinion is that the D-49 was developed together with the D-25TA and shares much more in common with that than with the D-25TS.

Personally, I doubt that the SU-122-54 had a gun stabilizer which makes it hard to believe that the D-49 is based on the D-25TS. Plus, the SU-122-54 used the articulated telescopic TSh2-22 sight so that's another design aspect the D-49 shares with the D-25TA. However, my personal suspicions doesn't count as a source, so I deferred to you instead.

 

 

Interlinked; thanks for that info and sighting me as a source.   :)  As always, I make every effort to confirm and re-confirm any info I post or include in an article. By the way, your article is very well done - good work!

 

It sounds like the closest relationship is truly between the D-49 and the D-25TA...but I'll look around a bit more before I commit...

 

Here's a good comparison of just how close the rigid-chain rammers used by the T-10A/T-10B and the SU-122-54 really are (both images are from the respective operator's manuals):  

 

SU-122-54_T-10_Rigid-Chain%20Rammers_1.j


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#6236 Interlinked

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 2258 PM

Mr. Warford, while doing research for another article I stumbled across an article by Alexander Shirokorad in the June 1996 edition of the "Техника и оружие" magazine that goes into a bit more detail about the history of the D-49. According to him, the first 9 guns were produced in 1952 for military trials. At this time, the D-49 design already had its powered rammer and fume extractor, among other changes from the original D-25T. The SU-122-54 entered service in 1954 and got their D-49 guns, meaning that the gun predates the D-25TS by two years. 

 

So the D-49 cannot possibly be a derivative of the D-25TS. Rather, it is far more likely that it was developed in parallel with the D-25TA and the two guns used many identical components because they were both products of the same design bureau. It's still a mystery why the early T-10s didn't have a fume extractor on their D-25TA guns, though. 


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#6237 bojan

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 0455 AM

Because compressed air gun cleaning system was planned and than scrapped.


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#6238 Harkonnen

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 1849 PM

Another what if in Soviet amour history )

The last design of 490A before adopting 152 mm caliber decision.

Constant changes of technical requirement and trust in advanced propellant technologies made soviet  future tank project a long lasting journey of failures.  

 

 

020.jpg​

Above is a model of the ast variant of the object 490A design with changes of armor modules attachment and some other improvement

details - http://btvt.info/7english/490A_eng.htm


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#6239 KV7

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 0937 AM

I think it would have been better to flatten the turret even more and lift the hull, which would give a lot more internal volume with a constant frontal area.
 


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#6240 Jim Warford

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 2304 PM

Mr. Warford, while doing research for another article I stumbled across an article by Alexander Shirokorad in the June 1996 edition of the "Техника и оружие" magazine that goes into a bit more detail about the history of the D-49. According to him, the first 9 guns were produced in 1952 for military trials. At this time, the D-49 design already had its powered rammer and fume extractor, among other changes from the original D-25T. The SU-122-54 entered service in 1954 and got their D-49 guns, meaning that the gun predates the D-25TS by two years. 

 

So the D-49 cannot possibly be a derivative of the D-25TS. Rather, it is far more likely that it was developed in parallel with the D-25TA and the two guns used many identical components because they were both products of the same design bureau. It's still a mystery why the early T-10s didn't have a fume extractor on their D-25TA guns, though. 

 

Great info...thanks! 


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