276 replies to this topic

[JasonJ]

To start off, there's been some mention of a Type 52E destroyer since a number of months ago but the name seems to be spreading around a bit more this month. I think this is a video of a TV program and not some fan-made (but maybe still a touch of fan edits) with mention of the Type 52E.  It's probably mostly based off of the Type 52D but uses some technologies from the Type 55 destroyer such as a new radar called model 383.

Here is the text from the video:

Spoiler

曾经 052C/D就是我国最先进的军舰
看着那连欧洲最新战舰都不舍得用的4面大盾
我们感觉到了一个词豪华
曾经我们以为 如果航母编队里都是052C/D这样的＂神盾＂舰
未免太奢侈了些 干是我们觉得
我们似乎还应该有一款类似干052B那样的＂通用＂驱逐舰
来作为舰母编队的主力 但当052C/D开始大批量建造
当新一代的055型驱逐舰己经下水人们的思想变了
有人开始畅想我们是如此的＂豪气＂就应该大批量的建造055
然后作为舰母编队的主力 这个想法是否现实呢
以美军为参考的话 在其航母编队中
满载排水量9600吨的＂提康德罗加＂级巡洋舰 也不过1-2艘
其主力舰艇还是满载排水量约9000吨的＂伯克＂级驱逐舰
所以 以满载排水量达12000吨以上的055型
为主力的想法过于豪华了些近日有关方面消息称
我国新型的052E型驱逐舰项目正在对关键性配套设备进行竞标
而该型舰艇将作为052D的延续 继续成为我国航母编队的主力
消息源称052E将吸收055型的先进技术成果
原先的382型搜索雷达将被替挽成383型双波段有源相控阵旋转雷达
以提高棎测距离 精度和多目标处理能力
同时其供电系统也将升级 可能采用综合电力系统
从描述看 052E更类似千一款排水量稍小的055
以更多的数量作为主力的存在
同时 一个好消息是 我国新一代的054B型护卫舰
也将采取这种双波段的AESA雷达
看来我国这是准备要＂白菜化＂双波段雷达了

 

From the video is these images of a CG model and a physical model that can be found elsewhere on the net. It seems to be that these are older images and are of an early concept design for the Type 55 destroyer. Of course the Type 55 destroyer still came out fairly different and bigger than the following concept.

 

The big black rotary radar on top of the tower is probably the radar that is said to be planned for the Type 52E. Note the difference between that radar and the one in the same position on the Type 52D.

[JasonJ]

The video in the first post has been deleted already but maybe it'll pop up again somewhere else.

 

Anyway, when the first Type 55 destroyer was launched with a ceremony and all, there was still guesswork as to how many VLS the ship actually had since that data was never officially stated and there hasn't been anyway clear photos to make direct observation possible. Guesswork ranged from 96 to 128. But now this photo came out which now seems to have people concluding that it has 2x8x4 (64) in the front and 2x8x3 (48) in the rear, thus making 112 VLS.

[Josh]

That's a particularly prominent sonar bulge.

Any idea what the installations above the hanger are? There are four that look similar, two facing out to each side. The one centered behind that I assume is another point defense system; looks like their flavor of RAM.

[JasonJ]

According to these Chinese image of a Type 52D destroyer which has similar looking thing in identical position, those are 多功能火箭发射器 (multi-function rocket launchers)  系统(system). I would guess that the primary function is to launch decoys. The second image is calling the RAM-like missile piece HQ-10 防空导弹系统 (air defense missile system). Probably the same equipment being put on the Type 55.

 

Edited by JasonJ, 04 October 2017 - 0913 AM.

[Josh]

Ok, so basically their SRBOC. Might also serve as some kind of close range ASW mortar like the Russians do/did.

Also I didn't notice how large the sonar installation on the 52D was. 55 looks to have more of the same.

[JasonJ]

I have been thinking that the 4 faced phased array radars looked kind of big too. Either they aren't able to use the las test technology and are making up for less effectiveness with bigger size or they are using similar level of tech but just going bigger for better performance.

[DB]

Well, size might have more to do with wavelength. Emitter spacing would likely be a function of wavelength.

 

The location of the multi-function rocket launchers suggests countermeasures, like as you say, chaff dispensers.

 

The 7-30 has a very Goalkeeper look to it, but with an obvious EO head as well as the radar tracker.

[Josh]

At 18x4, that's a lot of counter measures compared to USN ships.

As for the panels, it isn't obvious to me that its a bigger installation but it might be. The more elements you have, the more energy you can focus at any particular target. It doesn't mean a frequency change most likely; I assume it opperates in the S band, but it would mean enhanced range and target tracking ability. Note that the US has been attempting to field much larger phased arrays as well, primarily for ABM usage (which the Chinese don't need) but generally has been running into the problem of comfortably carrying the top weight.

[JasonJ]

Interesting point about top weight on destroyers. The use of gallium nitride in radars looks to be attractive and some articles make it sound like a game changer as far as radars go. AFAIK, the new SPY-6 uses GaN. And the US Army is looking into replacing the radars on the Patriot system with new ones made with GaN. GaN has a density of 6.1g per cm3 while the current (I guess) GaAs has a density of 5.3g per gram3. Any idea on the potential weight increase that comes with using GaN? Naturally land based systems like Patriot and Aegis ashore won't have any top heavy issue. And while I'm at it, is there any competitive alternative to the use of GaN in the future or is it the way to go in the future?

[Josh]

SPY-6, also know as AMDR, does use GaN. However the USN still wanted much larger arrays for missile defense and couldn't fit them into the Burke:

"The AMDR system consists of two primary radars and a radar suite controller (RSC) to coordinate the sensors. An S-band radar is to provide volume search, tracking, ballistic missile defense discrimination and missile communications while the X-band radar is to provide horizon search, precision tracking, missile communication and terminal illumination of targets.[6] The S-band and X-band sensors will also share functionality including radar navigation, periscope detection, as well as missile guidance and communication. AMDR is intended as a scalable system; the Burke deckhouse can only accommodate a 14-foot version but the USN claim they need a radar of 20 foot or more to meet future ballistic missile threats.[8] This would require a new ship design; Ingalls have proposed the San Antonio-class amphibious transport dock as the basis for a ballistic missile defense cruiser with 20-foot AMDR. To cut costs the first twelve AMDR sets will have an X-band component based on the existing SPQ-9B rotating radar, to be replaced by a new X-band radar in set 13 that will be more capable against future threats.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia...PY-6#Technology

[JasonJ]

First Type 901 AOE was commissioned on September 1st.

More in spoiler

Spoiler

 

[JasonJ]

Fitting out of their second carrier.

More in the spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

[nemo]

SPY-6, also know as AMDR, does use GaN. However the USN still wanted much larger arrays for missile defense and couldn't fit them into the Burke:

"The AMDR system consists of two primary radars and a radar suite controller (RSC) to coordinate the sensors. An S-band radar is to provide volume search, tracking, ballistic missile defense discrimination and missile communications while the X-band radar is to provide horizon search, precision tracking, missile communication and terminal illumination of targets.[6] The S-band and X-band sensors will also share functionality including radar navigation, periscope detection, as well as missile guidance and communication. AMDR is intended as a scalable system; the Burke deckhouse can only accommodate a 14-foot version but the USN claim they need a radar of 20 foot or more to meet future ballistic missile threats.[8] This would require a new ship design; Ingalls have proposed the San Antonio-class amphibious transport dock as the basis for a ballistic missile defense cruiser with 20-foot AMDR. To cut costs the first twelve AMDR sets will have an X-band component based on the existing SPQ-9B rotating radar, to be replaced by a new X-band radar in set 13 that will be more capable against future threats.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia...PY-6#Technology

 

Size of the array of 052C is 4.2 meter. Size of the array of 052D is 4.5 meters.  Size of the array in 055 is rumored to be 6 meters.  Note 14 ft is around 4.2 meters, and 6 meters is around 20 feet.  So 055 is essentially what US navy would like for a full sized AMDR follow-on to Aleigh Burke.  And 052C and 052D at mid life refit will have a sensor that will at least be a match to AMDR fitted to Burke 3.

 

Your picture of so called 052E is definitely fan generated, so not trustworthy.

[JasonJ]

 

SPY-6, also know as AMDR, does use GaN. However the USN still wanted much larger arrays for missile defense and couldn't fit them into the Burke:

"The AMDR system consists of two primary radars and a radar suite controller (RSC) to coordinate the sensors. An S-band radar is to provide volume search, tracking, ballistic missile defense discrimination and missile communications while the X-band radar is to provide horizon search, precision tracking, missile communication and terminal illumination of targets.[6] The S-band and X-band sensors will also share functionality including radar navigation, periscope detection, as well as missile guidance and communication. AMDR is intended as a scalable system; the Burke deckhouse can only accommodate a 14-foot version but the USN claim they need a radar of 20 foot or more to meet future ballistic missile threats.[8] This would require a new ship design; Ingalls have proposed the San Antonio-class amphibious transport dock as the basis for a ballistic missile defense cruiser with 20-foot AMDR. To cut costs the first twelve AMDR sets will have an X-band component based on the existing SPQ-9B rotating radar, to be replaced by a new X-band radar in set 13 that will be more capable against future threats.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia...PY-6#Technology

 

Size of the array of 052C is 4.2 meter. Size of the array of 052D is 4.5 meters.  Size of the array in 055 is rumored to be 6 meters.  Note 14 ft is around 4.2 meters, and 6 meters is around 20 feet.  So 055 is essentially what US navy would like for a full sized AMDR follow-on to Aleigh Burke.  And 052C and 052D at mid life refit will have a sensor that will at least be a match to AMDR fitted to Burke 3.

 

Your picture of so called 052E is definitely fan generated, so not trustworthy.

 

 

That is some interesting specific data dimensions. I don't mean to come off negatively, but I have to ask, is the numbers on the dimensions being published in actual books or stated by officials or is it pixel counting estimating work by net users? The pixel counting way wouldn't necessarily fully discredit an estimation of 4.2, 4.5, and 6.0 meters, but it would call interest in a closer look in how the pixel counting came to its measurements (for anyone that was interested debating that at least). Well for me, just knowing that the Type 55 having bigger ones than the Type 52D and Type 52C is good enough. Well anyway, just interested in where those numbers are coming from.

 

Never claimed that the pictures were of the Type 52E. Read more carefully please.

[nemo]

 

 

SPY-6, also know as AMDR, does use GaN. However the USN still wanted much larger arrays for missile defense and couldn't fit them into the Burke:

"The AMDR system consists of two primary radars and a radar suite controller (RSC) to coordinate the sensors. An S-band radar is to provide volume search, tracking, ballistic missile defense discrimination and missile communications while the X-band radar is to provide horizon search, precision tracking, missile communication and terminal illumination of targets.[6] The S-band and X-band sensors will also share functionality including radar navigation, periscope detection, as well as missile guidance and communication. AMDR is intended as a scalable system; the Burke deckhouse can only accommodate a 14-foot version but the USN claim they need a radar of 20 foot or more to meet future ballistic missile threats.[8] This would require a new ship design; Ingalls have proposed the San Antonio-class amphibious transport dock as the basis for a ballistic missile defense cruiser with 20-foot AMDR. To cut costs the first twelve AMDR sets will have an X-band component based on the existing SPQ-9B rotating radar, to be replaced by a new X-band radar in set 13 that will be more capable against future threats.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia...PY-6#Technology

 

Size of the array of 052C is 4.2 meter. Size of the array of 052D is 4.5 meters.  Size of the array in 055 is rumored to be 6 meters.  Note 14 ft is around 4.2 meters, and 6 meters is around 20 feet.  So 055 is essentially what US navy would like for a full sized AMDR follow-on to Aleigh Burke.  And 052C and 052D at mid life refit will have a sensor that will at least be a match to AMDR fitted to Burke 3.

 

Your picture of so called 052E is definitely fan generated, so not trustworthy.

 

 

That is some interesting specific data dimensions. I don't mean to come off negatively, but I have to ask, is the numbers on the dimensions being published in actual books or stated by officials or is it pixel counting estimating work by net users? The pixel counting way wouldn't necessarily fully discredit an estimation of 4.2, 4.5, and 6.0 meters, but it would call interest in a closer look in how the pixel counting came to its measurements (for anyone that was interested debating that at least). Well for me, just knowing that the Type 55 having bigger ones than the Type 52D and Type 52C is good enough. Well anyway, just interested in where those numbers are coming from.

 

Never claimed that the pictures were of the Type 52E. Read more carefully please.

 

 

That's what I remembered from the discussion on the net.  Since you asked about the source, I did a search to try to find the source.  For Type 346 radar of 052C, I found a dimension of 3.9m x 4.6m cited in lots of places, including baidu encyclopedia page -- I am not able to track down the source, but it probably come from a single picture of the radar before the external cover is mounted.  The figures that I cited before is probably external dimension, pixel counted by someone. The 346A radar of 052D actually have a news article source in Chinese, the expert interviewed state that 346A is larger the base 346, and the dimension is 4.3m.   So it's in the ball park of the figure I cited.

The figure for 055 is speculated, so beware.

[JasonJ]

Some more images of the Type 55 with some top down images.

 

 

 

[JasonJ]

3rd Zubr class LCAC.

 

Their first two were purchased form the Ukraine.

 

 

This third one was domestically made recently.

Spoiler

近日据网友发布图片显示，野牛家族的第三艘野牛也就是国产的第一艘野牛气垫船3327艇终于加入人民海军序列。这艘与之前的两艘已经有很大的不同了，与3325、3326不同的是3327两侧的风扇壳上的是八一军旗而不是海军旗，这一特征变化可能也有着不同的意义。

野牛气垫船以555吨的满载排水量成为世界上最大的气垫登陆船舶，且其尺寸远大于现今船坞登陆舰和两栖攻击舰的容纳能力，不能由任何母船搭载，完全依靠本身的续航力，因此苏联海军将其直接划分为“登陆舰”。

　　虽然只有500吨的排水量，可是他的战斗力却是堪称是全世界最变态的军舰了，堪比一艘4万吨级别的两栖攻击舰了。

它拥有强大的运输力，实际载重可达150吨。该舰可一次装载运送3辆96式主战坦克，或者10辆89式装甲输送车，或者8辆ZBD-97/04式步兵战车，同时，舰上设有4个登陆舱室，可搭载共计140名海军陆战队员同时执行任务。

　　如果只是搭载登陆作战人员，那么，可在运送登陆作战装备的舱室安装可拆卸座椅，这样可以安置360名全副武装的海军陆战队员，使该舰搭载总数达到一个加强营近500人。

火力方面也一样的很强悍，艇艏两侧各装有一具MS-227 Ogon 22联装140mm多管火箭发射器，每组发射器各备有66枚弹药，足以三次射击所需。舰桥前方的两侧各装有一门AK-630 30mm六管旋转机炮，用于射击水面、岸上目标或进行防空自卫，每分钟射速达3200发。

　　此外，艇上还有两组双联装MTU-2短程防空导弹发射器，每具发射器 各备有16枚SA-N-5（后期改用SA-N-16 Igla-M）短程防空导弹。此外，必要时野牛型也能担任布雷任务，此时舰上车辆甲板可储存80枚水雷，由舰尾舱门施放。

专家曾表示每次登陆作战时，美军都必须确定了绝对的制海制空权后才进行的，从来不敢用没有任何武装的登陆舰登陆。反观野牛气垫船火力强大，拥有比一般炮艇还强大的海空火力，直接可以领用自己的火力进行登陆。美军目前的没有一款登陆舰、艇的性能能远超野牛舰的。

　　正是因为这么出色的性能，当初中国购买乌克兰的野牛气垫船价格也是不菲啊，据说每艘的单价达到了8000万美元，4艘总共花费了3.15亿美元，而当初希腊购买该级气垫船的时候仅仅花费了5000万美元而已。

汉和防务曾认为，中国拥有独立研制的能力之后，将最终装备20艘改型气垫船，加上更多的726型中型气垫船，整个气垫船舰队的总数甚至会达到50艘。（作者署名：鼎盛军事）

http://mil.news.sina...mq4848148.shtml

More pictures from the article in the spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

 

[JasonJ]

Armored vehicles transported by a LACA reach the sea-beach during a landing training exercise on May 13, 2016. A landing ship flotilla with the South China Sea Fleet of the PLA Navy has been engaged in beach landing training in an undisclosed sea area of the South China Sea for several days in mid-May, 2016. The training highlighted the coordination between the crew of Landing Craft Air Cushion (LACA) and the troops of armored units in the loading and unloading of armored hardware.

http://english.china...t_7062247_7.htm

More pictures of that exercise and linked article in the spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

There a several webpage articles dated late 2014 and early 2015 like this one saying that Greece sold their 4 Zubr LCACs to China but I cannot find anything later to confirm whether of not that deal went though or if there was a hick up. Anyone know?

[rohala]

There a several webpage articles dated late 2014 and early 2015 like this one saying that Greece sold their 4 Zubr LCACs to China but I cannot find anything later to confirm whether of not that deal went though or if there was a hick up. Anyone know?

No Greek Zubrs were sold, unless I'm missing something all 4 are still in possession of the Greek Navy. Two are fully operational, one was recently brought back to action and is presumably operational while the fourth has been cannibalized for spare parts. Maintenance of the ships is very problematic due to high costs and the fact that their engines are Ukrainian. Russia however has developed its own engine and I read that it is the intention of the Greek navy to eventually repair and bring the fourth one back to service as well.

[KV7]

 

There a several webpage articles dated late 2014 and early 2015 like this one saying that Greece sold their 4 Zubr LCACs to China but I cannot find anything later to confirm whether of not that deal went though or if there was a hick up. Anyone know?

No Greek Zubrs were sold, unless I'm missing something all 4 are still in possession of the Greek Navy. Two are fully operational, one was recently brought back to action and is presumably operational while the fourth has been cannibalized for spare parts. Maintenance of the ships is very problematic due to high costs and the fact that their engines are Ukrainian. Russia however has developed its own engine and I read that it is the intention of the Greek navy to eventually repair and bring the fourth one back to service as well.

 

Apparently there is more then enough interest to restart production, the problem is a technical one of restarting component production.