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Does/did The Rn Need Qe Class Aircraft Carriers.


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#41 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 1145 AM

Well I used to make Aircraft Carriers out of Jaffa cake boxes and cellotape. They never broke down. :)


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#42 Harold Jones

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 1203 PM

This game taught me everything I ever needed to know about carrier ops.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=XlLEdxbAh4s  Best Christmas present ever.


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#43 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 1318 PM

Ive had my eye on these, they might be interesting.

 

https://store.steamp...rrier_Survival/

 

https://store.steamp...0/Carrier_Deck/

 

As for strategy, CMANO has taught me a fair bit. Not least how hard it is to find a carrier when you want to.


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#44 2805662

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 1436 PM


What were the decisions the British government made that decided they needed two aircraft carriers?

One is none, two is one.

By that logic, two is also none.
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#45 Nobu

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 1529 PM

The question is where will the UK be, economically and politically, 25 years from now?

 

The decision made regarding the carriers will essentially be a referendum for the answer.


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#46 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 1620 PM

The question is where will the UK be, economically and politically, 25 years from now?
 
The decision made regarding the carriers will essentially be a referendum for the answer.


No. Where we are economically and politically in 25 years time will dictate whether we still have carriers. Countries that no longer have them (Japan*. Netherlands, Canada, Australia and Argentina) have had vastly differing economic and political fortunes. If you are trying to imply aircraft carrier possession is some kind of prerequisite for political and economic success, it's simply not borne out by the evidence, either way.

*Cue argument about what constitutes an aircraft carrier.
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#47 Nobu

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 1722 PM

A prerequisite for political and economic growth is confidence in and a vision of a better future for one's nation. What the UK ultimately does with its 2 carriers will go a long way toward signaling how much there exists of both in it.

 

If the answer is none, aircraft carrier expenditure is and will be the least of the UK's problems.


Edited by Nobu, 03 July 2019 - 1724 PM.

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#48 rmgill

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 2051 PM

Ryan, you seem to be writing for the benefit of people who have spent their lives in a remote valley in Papua New Guinea. Thank you for deigning to explain that carriers are complex things that require a lot of maintenance. I'll get back to hunting birds of paradise with my home made blowgun now.


Quite right, why does the UK need carriers let alone more than one?
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#49 rmgill

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 2052 PM

By that logic, two is also none.


It's a point about redundancy and fault tolerance.
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#50 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0200 AM

The question is where will the UK be, economically and politically, 25 years from now?

 

The decision made regarding the carriers will essentially be a referendum for the answer.

 

Well we could have done that 21 years ago, and if we had, we probably wouldnt have them. I wasnt in favour of building them at the time because I recognised that economically we were on thing ground, and there would be issues of finding enough money for defence to go round. I never thought for an instant they would be completed, and in fairness, David Cameron did envisage pulling the plug on them, but the contracts were too advanced.

 

That said, we built them. So lets use them. This MTV style of defence procurement, where we buy the new big shiny thing and instantly move onto the new big shiny thing, has got to stop. We cant afford to keep chopping and changing as a nation. We have it, it works, so lets use it. And if means trimming other areas of the defence budget, well thats what we are going to have to do.

 

There is no military on earth that can easily project what they will need 20 plus years down the line. Not even the US. We arent an exception.


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#51 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0529 AM

But what we can do is make rational decisions about what we need our armed forces to do and what it is realistic to achieve and base our spending around that.
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#52 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0532 AM

A prerequisite for political and economic growth is confidence in and a vision of a better future for one's nation. What the UK ultimately does with its 2 carriers will go a long way toward signaling how much there exists of both in it.
 
If the answer is none, aircraft carrier expenditure is and will be the least of the UK's problems.

Switzerland, Denmark and Luxembourg would therefore be utterly impoverished by now, having never had aircraft carriers. Argentina became a global economic and military powerhouse through possession of one?
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#53 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0533 AM

Well to me, its not rational to take a policy we have been dead set upon for 20 years, and change it to an entirely other one, when it could be Putin's Russia could collapse tomorrow. Its not likely, but it is possible.

 

To my mind, there needs to be a reasonable stability in the force structure we build. Yes, as Ive said, I personally would not have made this decision 20 years ago for a variety of reasons. But having made it, and transitioned towards it, this fashionablity really bothers me. We have kit, so lets use it. Lets stop throwing it away in search of the next big thing, because to be honest, whether its Challenger 2 or Apache, we have been doing entirely too much of it. We are spending all our money transitioning, but never actually arriving anywhere.

 

BTW, I sent you a message with a link you might find interesting if you like aircraft flight manuals.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 04 July 2019 - 0534 AM.

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#54 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0536 AM

Stuart, did you ever read the book "The post war naval revolution". If not I would highly recommend it.
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#55 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0650 AM

Ive not, but Ill certainly look out for it. 

If you will take a recommendation from me, read Norman Friedmans 'Seapower and Space', which brilliantly illustrates the rise of the missile and communication revolution in seapower, and also illustrates quite how difficult how hard it is to find (and target) aircraft carriers at sea.

https://www.amazon.c...n/dp/1861760043


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#56 Panzermann

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0715 AM

 

A prerequisite for political and economic growth is confidence in and a vision of a better future for one's nation. What the UK ultimately does with its 2 carriers will go a long way toward signaling how much there exists of both in it.
 
If the answer is none, aircraft carrier expenditure is and will be the least of the UK's problems.

Switzerland, Denmark and Luxembourg would therefore be utterly impoverished by now, having never had aircraft carriers. Argentina became a global economic and military powerhouse through possession of one?

 

 

I think nobu is referring to national self confidence and not carriers in and of themselves. Though looking at Brexit I do not have much confidence in the UK's politicians handling anything properly.


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#57 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0720 AM

Oh, im increasingly confident because of Brexit they will. Because an entire generation of feckless British politicians are having their careers crucified by Brexit. The gene pool after they are gone is sure to be better than it is now. Even Farage seems to be floundering at trying to get into Parliament.

 

The is a saying in English 'Give them enough rope to hang themselves'. Which as far as Boris Johnson seems incredibly likely. But I digress.


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#58 Panzermann

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 0728 AM

Oh, im increasingly confident because of Brexit they will. Because an entire generation of feckless British politicians are having their careers crucified by Brexit. The gene pool after they are gone is sure to be better than it is now. Even Farage seems to be floundering at trying to get into Parliament.

 

The is a saying in English 'Give them enough rope to hang themselves'. Which as far as Boris Johnson seems incredibly likely. But I digress.

 

Brexit brand chlorine for the politician pool? :lol:

 

Yes, I agree, Johnson is going to really burn it down. Instead of cutting it short and choosing someone like Stewart. But looking at the new EU comissars. One failure next to the other. On the continent we are no better off.


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#59 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 1752 PM

Ive had my eye on these, they might be interesting.

 

https://store.steamp...rrier_Survival/

 

https://store.steamp...0/Carrier_Deck/

 

As for strategy, CMANO has taught me a fair bit. Not least how hard it is to find a carrier when you want to.

 

I'm sure you could model an oligarch's yacht following a CVBG around :)  Otherwise...
 

https://www.navyreco...-garmoniya.html


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#60 Nobu

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 2207 PM

For the 10th largest exporter in the world to anticipate having no seafaring interests to defend and no seafaring interests to fight for 25 years from now sounds like a referendum of its own on the UK's vision of its future. Forseeably, carriers and the ability to operate them will continue to dominate the ability of a nation to do both.

 

Leaving that for others to handle does not inspire confidence in whatever the UK may endeavor to accomplish otherwise.


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