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#21 Skywalkre

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 1513 PM

Jingles playing Cold Waters.

 

 

I'm curious from the few videos I've seen... what's stopping you from just launching at first contact with possible enemy?  None of the vids I've seen (and I haven't seen that many, to be fair) haven't shown civilians or friendlies in the same vicinity.  It's certainly 'gamey' but at the same time some of these scenarios would almost lend themselves to having that be the right move IRL.

 

Edit: To answer my own question I watched the next video Jingles put out for Cold Waters and he did just the above.  Was the first mission in the campaign and his job was to take out Soviet sub tenders.  Once he made contact and once he mostly IDed two of his three contacts as hostile he just let loose at max range.  Ended up killing all four eventual contacts from very long range with little threat to himself.  So it's certainly viable in certain situations (though inserting the SF team per the vid above it wouldn't be so at least there appears to be some variety).


Edited by Skywalkre, 21 June 2017 - 1024 AM.

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#22 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 0152 AM

Well its a mainly target rich environment, and like as not any ships in WW3 would already be in convoy. There are Whales though, and you can reportedly torpedo them if you mistake them for a submarine.

 

My own view, I think the submarine manoeuvreablity is a little too much, and the sensor range is just a bit strong. As said I adjusted it on the Soviet side and got results that seemed rather more realistic, if somewhat less exciting. They also need to stop the enemy spamming SSN16's over your location.

 

By and large though, its heading in the right direction. its an article of faith at the moment to buy it they will solve the worst of its problems, but in truth even with its flaws its actually quite a lot of fun. They arguably succeeded in making RSR 2.


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#23 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 0741 AM

Oh I should mention, there is already a mod out so you can drive Soviet boats. Much fun, particularly using the stand off torpedos. Alfa is one hell of a lot of fun. :)


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#24 Skywalkre

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 1032 AM

For me it sounds like something worth following but not grabbing til a Steam sale and more patches/features are pushed.

 

I'm still soured by Rule the Waves and how quickly that lost its luster despite all the hype for it. 


Edited by Skywalkre, 21 June 2017 - 1033 AM.

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#25 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 1056 AM

Yeah, at the moment till its patched and in a really happy place, its probably not worth the price for it, other than the the realization the devs seem to be some fairly nice guys that are really listening to the community. I think this is going to be a bit like SH3, absolutely awesome, but only when they patch it about 5 times.

 

Keep an eye on it and grab it in a sale is your best option I think. I might figure out how to mod the sonar systems properly by then. :)


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#26 Skywalkre

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 1354 PM

The big question that just dawned on me - is their a save feature while playing?  It would seem possible that on some missions you could be spending a LOT of time trying to get around everyone and everything looking for you.  Would be annoying if there was no way to save on such potentially long missions.


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#27 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 0223 AM

There is on the campaign map, and that usually gives you the opportunity to restart a mission.


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#28 Skywalkre

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 1212 PM

I've been looking for a game to fill my time for a few weeks now and nothing is grabbing me.  How is Cold Waters holding up after another month?  I've read there's not much replayability to it.  Is that true?  Are there more issues that seem rather glaring with the extra time played?


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#29 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 0159 AM

Ive put it down for now to wait for them to finish patching it. It would help if they had perhaps set the second campaign in the late 1980's, in 1984 they are still rather louds, with the exception of a Sierra. It would help perhaps if they hard larger submarine groups operating together. Going off on a mission to sink one hapless Whiskey making a special forces drop does seem a bit of a waste of time tbh.

 

I did mod to put in real world data for the Mk37 (no wire) and ordinary and adcap versions of the Mk48. Its also got real world data for Soviet Torpedo's now, so its fairly realistic. Its kind of a shock when you mod it to make the Soviet sonar systems behave like real life, and discover they really were deaf as posts for the most part.

 

I guess my greatest fun with the game is modding it. I found the same thing with 'Project 1 Strikefighters'. Playing it is secondary. :D


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#30 RETAC21

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 1315 PM

Where did you get sonar performance data?

 

It's still a bit too green for me to jump in, it needs a Soviet campaign and a XXI century China campaign


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#31 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 1347 PM

SWAG to some extent. The best indicator of performance was a CIA FOIA report on Soviet sonar systems dating from the early 1970's that evaluated sonar systems by era. The first gen were about WW2 level, but the 3rd gen (as fitted to the first Victors and Charlies) was evaluated as being only about half as effective as US sonar systems. So I about halved the levels of the US systems and fitted to the Soviet submarines of the early 70's, which is plenty good enough for something like a Victor II or an Alfa to be a threat to a Sturgeon. Coupled to a modded Sierra to be about as quiet as an LA, it gets really quite twitchy at times. Surprisingly it seems to work, you can actually manoeuvre and get into attack positions now, rather than the big underwater dogfight you always seem to get with the default settings. Its a really interesting document actually, its about the only thing ive found that shows sonar performance. There is also a document on DTIC that seems to give noise levels for Charlie and Victors in certain frequency levels.

 

I had a go at trying to mod Subroc, but I could never figure out how to get it to drop a nuclear depth charge. Aircraft dropped nuclear depth charges would certainly be possible not. Not quite sure if ASTOR is viable or not, it would probably have to hit a target to detonate, unless the self destruct charge can be set to simulate similar effects to a 20KT warhead.

 

Soviet campaign I think has to some extent already been modded on Subsim, but ill think ill wait for the Devs to do it. That would i think be absolutely hilarious fun driving a Victor III in a campaign.

 

Basically there is a lot of room for modding. But whilst they keep issuing continual updates (all of which in fairness do seem to improve the game, particularly wire breaks) then im holding off for the moment.


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#32 RETAC21

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 1312 PM

got a link?

 

Thanks


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#33 Skywalkre

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 1323 PM

Despite the fact I'm looking for a new game it sounds like it's still worth holding out on this one.  On the bright side at least the devs sound like they're on top of getting updates out at a reasonable pace.


Edited by Skywalkre, 03 August 2017 - 1324 PM.

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#34 Argus

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 0019 AM

I've put about a dozen hours into this game, and while it's not too shabby IMHO I'd wait for a sale if I had to buy it again. The '68 campaign/s are freaking hard. The MK.37's are just too slow to engage some targets at greater than suicidal range and the UI isn't really set up to get the best out of dumb torps that have the legs, so there's a pretty high skill factor. The '84 period is almost the opposite, MK.48 are very reliable killers, do you job properly and nothing will survive or lay a glove on you in the process - do it wrong and you end up sunk, so its a bit binary in that sense.     

 

I'm getting better, the hardest thing being to break my old WWII/DE boat habits of seeing 5 knots and 500 feet as natural limits. You can get it all done at 5 knots but it takes a bloody age.  

 

shane 


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#35 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 0207 AM

got a link?

 

Thanks

 

Yeah, sorry, my bad.

 

https://www.cia.gov/..._0005512850.pdf

 

They also have rather thoughtfully put a whole section in place for reports relating to the Soviet navy, and there is some quite interesting stuff on there.

https://www.cia.gov/...sis-soviet-navy

 

 

I've put about a dozen hours into this game, and while it's not too shabby IMHO I'd wait for a sale if I had to buy it again. The '68 campaign/s are freaking hard. The MK.37's are just too slow to engage some targets at greater than suicidal range and the UI isn't really set up to get the best out of dumb torps that have the legs, so there's a pretty high skill factor. The '84 period is almost the opposite, MK.48 are very reliable killers, do you job properly and nothing will survive or lay a glove on you in the process - do it wrong and you end up sunk, so its a bit binary in that sense.     

 

I'm getting better, the hardest thing being to break my old WWII/DE boat habits of seeing 5 knots and 500 feet as natural limits. You can get it all done at 5 knots but it takes a bloody age.  

 

shane 

I think the 1984 scenario was a mistake. They would have done better to have set it in 1988, when everything was a quiet as a whale fart. I can understand why they wanted an Able Archer scenario, but its a bit wacky they still have Whiskeys and Foxtrots almost exclusively as DE's when by that time they would have been transitioning ot Kilos which would do an awful lot better.

 

The 1968 campaign is easier than it needs to be. For one thing Im convinced the Mk37s of that period (at least the submarine launched ones) didnt have wire, that seemed to be only the ship launched ones. They have also downrated the speed of the November. So imagine what its like when its modded, trying to kill a November that can do about 30 knots with a Torpedo that is only that speed when active, and which isnt even wire guided. The only reliable ways are shooting him in the ass, or on the nose at point blank range, at which point its starting to get very Tom Clancy. :D Badly needs an SUBROC or an ASTOR to balance things up, which is presumably why they reduced the speed of the November, to actually give any chance at all of killing the bugger.

 

Yeah I take your point, its probably worth a punt during a sale. At least until they get everything fixed. Still the most fun ive had in a boat since SHIII though.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 04 August 2017 - 0208 AM.

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#36 RETAC21

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 0818 AM

Those nice CIA chaps, on of the reports hidden there has the broadband dB levels of the 1st and 2nd gen subs, too bad it was from the 70s, and only got to the Victor 1...


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#37 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 0839 AM

Which one was that retac? I must have missed it.

 

There is also this on DTIC, which gave details on Blade count for Charlies and Victors.

http://www.dtic.mil/...tions/ADC010105


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#38 RETAC21

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 0927 AM

This one: https://www.cia.gov/..._0000316265.pdf

 

Interesting report you got there, not only gives you data on how the Soviets operated, but also pearls such as SOSUS can't reliably track US boomers (obviously 2nd gen ones, as it was able to track George Washington)


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#39 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 1026 AM

Ah yeah, I forgot about that one. There is also quite an interesting on Primoryie Class Intelligence ships.

 

What I cant quite work out, what Soviet sonar system was their copy of the British 2001 set as fitted to Dreadnought? The Silent Deep relates that they copied it successfully due to the Portland spy ring, and it was actually a blessing in disguise because RN commanders knew the performance of the set :D


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#40 RETAC21

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 1112 AM

I think a lot is made of spying but probably all it did was steer them in the right direction. Remember that sonar performance is also reliant on signal processing and own noise, so the Soviets had to contend with less advance processing, noisier subs and quieter oponents. 

 

With hindsight, it seems the Walker ring alerted them to the fact that their boats were being routinely trailed (see the track of a Charlie and a Yankee in the Norwegian sea) and that led them to improvements in quieting and better sonars, but as it took time to sink and implement*, real improvement was only seen with the late Victor IIIs and the Akula/Sierra classes. Which when you start to hear complains from western submariners about quieter boats.

Of note that when a USian captain was confronted with Soviet claims of parity in the tail end of the CW his automatic answer was: bullshit!

 

The diesels theoretically were quieter but only on batteries, as, when snorkeling, the were as detectable since the whole hull transmitted noise so it was easier to discriminate in SOSUS than a fishing boat, which made them start to transit on the surface...

 

* quality control is a bitch when you want to mass produce quickly


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