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American Equipment And Generals Suck, Part Whatever


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#461 Delta tank 6

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 0822 AM

To all,

Without digging out a book, IIRC the bombers also took off that morning. The bombing of Taiwan, bomb what? Bomb where? Did the Air Corps have target folders or whatever they are called showing exactly where and what to bomb? So, 36 B-17s carrying 2 tons of bombs were to fly unescorted to Taiwan and end the war in a single strike!!?? That last line is the happy horseshit that gets posted on some “history” forums.

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#462 shep854

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 0928 AM

AIUI, the Navy had recent photos of Taiwan airfields, but they didn't tell the Army...AND, the Japanese strike force was lined up on the airfields, gassed up and loaded w/ordnance, sweating bullets as they waited for the fog to lift.  A US strike at that time could have well disrupted the timetable for the whole Japanese Pacific campaign.


Edited by shep854, 05 December 2018 - 0931 AM.

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#463 Ken Estes

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1407 PM

I always thought the bombing of Taiwan airfields from the P.I. was a bit fanciful. Taiwan was a Japanese possession since 1895 and prewar recce overflights would be rather suspicious and hazardous, especially with the war in China ongoing. We also had a lot to learn about weaknesses of the (unescorted) "flying fortresses' and other aircraft in service in 1941.


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#464 Markus Becker

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1715 PM

To all,

Without digging out a book, IIRC the bombers also took off that morning. The bombing of Taiwan, bomb what? Bomb where?

Airfields. That had been the plan and that's what Bereton wanted to do. So says this history book and others too.

https://www.amazon.c...y/dp/1603447415

How it would have worked who knows? The Japanese bombers were stuck in the ground. But I have no idea about their early warning or how up to date US intelligence on the airfields was.

OTOH the strangest things had happened during that war. The Ardennes in 1940, the Mechelen incident, Pearl Harbout, the Channel Dash.

Edited by Markus Becker, 05 December 2018 - 1721 PM.

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#465 Delta tank 6

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 0626 AM

AIUI, the Navy had recent photos of Taiwan airfields, but they didn't tell the Army...AND, the Japanese strike force was lined up on the airfields, gassed up and loaded w/ordnance, sweating bullets as they waited for the fog to lift.  A US strike at that time could have well disrupted the timetable for the whole Japanese Pacific campaign.


How many airfields did the Japanese have on Taiwan? 20-30?? How are 36 B-17s going to bomb airfields whose location is unknown to the aircrews, in the fog, unescorted? This is fantasy!! Just think if 36 B-17s could destroy the 500 Japanese planes on Taiwan in one strike, what could we have done with 50 B-17s!! Wow!!!

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#466 JasonJ

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 0633 AM

 

AIUI, the Navy had recent photos of Taiwan airfields, but they didn't tell the Army...AND, the Japanese strike force was lined up on the airfields, gassed up and loaded w/ordnance, sweating bullets as they waited for the fog to lift.  A US strike at that time could have well disrupted the timetable for the whole Japanese Pacific campaign.


How many airfields did the Japanese have on Taiwan? 20-30?? How are 36 B-17s going to bomb airfields whose location is unknown to the aircrews, in the fog, unescorted? This is fantasy!! Just think if 36 B-17s could destroy the 500 Japanese planes on Taiwan in one strike, what could we have done with 50 B-17s!! Wow!!!

Mike

 

 

It's possible that maybe it wasn't really a serious plan but just some sort of plan that served a bureaucratic or personality functionality. I think in general, there is a lot of of well thought out planning and strategic thinking at the higher level in the US.


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#467 Markus Becker

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1218 PM

 

How many airfields did the Japanese have on Taiwan? 20-30?? 

 

 

One, I don't know and two, air fields were much less commen before the war than after and last but not least you can't put a lot of large bombers on some random airstrip. Thus I assume that the bombers were operating from a few, large and well equipped bases. Bases that would have been known to anyone traveling the island. 


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#468 Ken Estes

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1237 PM

Japanese bases Taiwan:

 

Giran Airfield Airfield Heito Airfield Airfield Hokuto Airfield Airfield Hozan Airfield Airfield Kagi Airfield Airfield Karenko Airfield Airfield Koryu Airfield Airfield Koshun Airfield Airfield Mako Guard District Naval Port Matsuyama Airfield Airfield Okayama Aircraft Factory Airfield, Factory Reigaryo Airfield Airfield Shinchiku Airfield Airfield Shoka Airfield Airfield Taichu Airfield Airfield Taichu West Airfield Airfield Taihoku General Government Building Government Building Taihoku Prison Prison Camp Taihoku Prisoner of War Camp No 6 Prison Camp Takao Guard District Naval Port Takao Seaplane Base Airfield Tamsui Seaplane Base Airfield
 

https://ww2db.com/country/Taiwan


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#469 Nobu

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1338 PM

Interservice rivalry dictated that the 5th Air Division of the IJAAF and the 11th Air Fleet of the IJNAF would sortie from separate air bases on Formosa consisting of the following for Brereton's 35 B17s to choose from.

 

Considering the U.S. high command was unaware of the presence of A6M fighters anywhere in Formosa indicates that Brereton's intelligence regarding Japanese aircraft dispositions would be a negative force multiplier on the effectiveness of his strike.

 

Tainan airbase 36xG3M bombers, 54xA6M fighters

Taichu airbase 27xG4M bombers

Chiai airbase 26x heavy transport aircraft

Takao airbase 54x G4M bombers, 45xA6M fighters

Chiatung airbase 18xType 97 heavy bombers, 27xKi-48 bombers

Chauchou airbase 27xKi-30 light bombers

Hengchun airbase 36xKi-27 fighters

Pingtung airbase 36xKi-27 fighters, 9xKi-51 dive bombers, 12.Ki-32 light bombers


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#470 Murph

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 0659 AM

Brereton was an idiot, and it is a pity he was not court martialled for what he did to the US forces.  But he should have been behind the Big Mac in the dock.  


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#471 RETAC21

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 1136 AM

You think if it had gone "PT boat sank, McArthur lost" the US would have won in '44?


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#472 Murph

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 0620 AM

Probably not, but a spectacular Court Martial, where he is stripped of his rank and drummed out of the service (or shot) would have had much the same effect.  

You think if it had gone "PT boat sank, McArthur lost" the US would have won in '44?


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#473 Detonable

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 0938 AM

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?
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#474 JWB

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 1217 PM

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?

 

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?

There were a few who could have been in command: J.Collins, Malin Craig, John Hull,  perhaps even Charles Summerall.


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#475 Markus Becker

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 1510 PM

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?


Less! After Buna/Gona Mac usually landed where the Japanese weren't and cut off their strongholds. The Philippines were the exception. A lot of Americans and Filipinos would have survived if they had been bypassed too.
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#476 Murph

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 1533 PM

 

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?

 

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?

There were a few who could have been in command: J.Collins, Malin Craig, John Hull,  perhaps even Charles Summerall.

 

Heck even Stillwell for that matter.  


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#477 Rich

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 1052 AM

 

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?

 

Who would have taken over, how much faster would they have won, and how many casualties would they have taken doing it?

There were a few who could have been in command: J.Collins, Malin Craig, John Hull,  perhaps even Charles Summerall.

 

 

Um, J. Lawton Collins and John E. Hull were much too junior. Malin Craig was as over-aged, five years older than MacArthur, who got a special age dispensation from Marshall, pretty much because of his political connections. And Summerall was three years older still.


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#478 JWB

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 1133 AM

Much too junior? Late forties is too young?


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#479 Rich

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 2101 PM

Much too junior? Late forties is too young?

 

Rank. You're talking about a court martial in early 1942. Collins was promoted brigadier general 14 February 1942 and major general 26 May 1942. Hull was promoted brigadier general 7 July 1942 and major general 14 January 1944.

 

You want command of an active theater of war given to some of the most junior general officers in the Army. While passing over some 89 more senior major generals...at least as of 1 January 1942?


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#480 JWB

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 2115 PM

 

Much too junior? Late forties is too young?

 

 You're talking about a court martial in early 1942. 

 

 

?


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