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Protests In Hong Kong


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#101 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0438 AM

I know, but what alternative was there? I dont think we wanted to let it go either.

 

One of my family was predicting there is going to be a LOT of Chinese wanting to come to the UK in the aftermath of this. Personally, Id welcome them. They are owed as far as im concerned.


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#102 sunday

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0506 AM

The alternative? Return to China the territories whose lease was expiring, and keep the territories which were leased in perpetuity. But that would have been too expensive for HM Treasury, so the then Government decided to give HK in whole to the PRC, AFAIR.

 

HK residents are perhaps more owed that most of the new "Asian" residents in UK.


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#103 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0552 AM

And once again we come down to Britain with its (at the time) 100 thousand man army backed by President Bill Clinton, standing up to China's 2 million man Army. Even if it worked at the time, which I doubt, it wouldn't work against the increasingly authoritarian state China now is.

 

These are all just pipe dreams and you know it. We find it hard enough to stand up to Spain  stamping its foot to get Gibraltar back. :)


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#104 sunday

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0554 AM

Then, what do you want nukes for?


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#105 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0638 AM

Well we could get into a long debate about nuclear deterrence, but personally I dont think our 216 nuclear warheads would make much of an impact on China's burgeoning population, do you?

 

The idea we can somehow leverage atomic weapons to hold onto British territories was rather disproved by our having the atomic bomb in 1952, and no Empire left in 1956. Nothing has changed since then. Nuclear weapons are for show and not for go, and although there are still some on this grate site that suggest otherwise, they are not to be taken seriously.

 

Should we threaten Spain with Atomic Weapons? Would you take it seriously? Probably not.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 02 July 2019 - 0641 AM.

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#106 sunday

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0645 AM

Well, that opens the discussion about the practicality of nuclear weapons in today's world, mad dictators excluded.


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#107 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0653 AM

Maybe when we get Boris Johnson as PM then. :D


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#108 DKTanker

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0655 AM

And once again we come down to Britain with its (at the time) 100 thousand man army backed by President Bill Clinton, standing up to China's 2 million man Army. Even if it worked at the time, which I doubt, it wouldn't work against the increasingly authoritarian state China now is.

 

These are all just pipe dreams and you know it. We find it hard enough to stand up to Spain  stamping its foot to get Gibraltar back. :)

Two points.  1.) China was not threatening war if Britain didn't give up HK, much less the territories for which it had no claim.  2.) Britain's Mine Sweeping fleet by itself would have been all the deterrent Britain needed.

 

Let's be real, shall we?  Britain ceding HK to PRC was all about ingratiating itself with PRC and opening new markets.  If Britain could have increased trade with a few billion communist Chinese and all they had to do was sacrifice a few million free Chinese for the cause, the math certainly argues that sacrificing the few makes sense.


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#109 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0727 AM

1 If we threatened NOT to give up HK, how do you know that they would not? They have after all a considerable advantage over Taiwan, in that they are physically connected to it. What would we do, bitterly complain to the UN about it? We had no legal right to the new territories, and that by all accounts amount to half the population of Hong Kong and 86 percent of the territory, including all the reservoirs. The last time anyone tried to split a city, the results were none too successful as I recall.

https://en.wikipedia...New_Territories

2 This coming from the nation that gave us the LCS. At least we dont have to run perfectly serviceable warships over mines to find them.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 02 July 2019 - 0910 AM.

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#110 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 0750 AM

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48835278

China has accused protesters who vandalised Hong Kong's parliament on Monday of "serious illegal actions" that "trample on the rule of law".

A group of activists occupied the Legislative Council (LegCo) building for several hours after breaking away from a peaceful protest.

Hundreds of police used tear gas to disperse demonstrators.

The Chinese government urged the city to investigate the "criminal responsibility of violent offenders".

Hong Kong, a former British colony, is part of China but run under a "one country, two systems" arrangement that guarantees it a level of autonomy. Its citizens enjoy rights not seen on the mainland.

Monday's disorder followed weeks of mass protests over a controversial extradition bill, which critics have said could be used to send political dissidents from Hong Kong to the mainland.

 

The Chinese government said the ransacking of parliament was a blatant challenge to the "one country, two systems" formula.

So far, Beijing has reacted to the protests from a distance, but Monday's violence could be a catalyst for Beijing to push for tighter control over Hong Kong, says BBC World Service Asia-Pacific editor Celia Hatton.

Hong Kong's leader Carrie Lam earlier made similar remarks, condemning the "extreme use of violence" by the protesters who had broken into LegCo.

"Nothing is more important than the rule of law in Hong Kong," she told a pre-dawn press conference on Tuesday, flanked by Police Commissioner Lo Wai-chung.

The government suspended the extradition bill last month and it is now unlikely to pass, but the protesters want it scrapped completely and are calling on Ms Lam to stand down.

 

Hypocrites.


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#111 Panzermann

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 1050 AM

ransacking? It does not look like anything has been taken from the HK parlaiment to me.
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#112 Nobu

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 1406 PM

The function of the Hongkongese resistance movment is to provoke a response. What is concerning in various ways is that this Carrie Lam appears to be cognizant of this.


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#113 rmgill

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 1643 PM

 

 

2 This coming from the nation that gave us the LCS. At least we dont have to run perfectly serviceable warships over mines to find them.

The LCS is a mistake among a lot of other more capable warships. Its not like we fielded JUST the LCS fitted for but not with weapons.

Seriously, stop pushing this line Stuart. When the UK stops being a 2nd tier player then you can talk smack about who's navy is less stupid. 


Edited by rmgill, 02 July 2019 - 1643 PM.

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#114 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 0207 AM

There is some speculation that the PRC put in 'Agitators' among the protestors, so they can make the protestors look bad enough that they can go in heavy handed. I wouldnt rule that out, but if they had, I would have thought that if they had, they would already have sent the tanks in by now.


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#115 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 0208 AM

 

 

 

2 This coming from the nation that gave us the LCS. At least we dont have to run perfectly serviceable warships over mines to find them.

The LCS is a mistake among a lot of other more capable warships. Its not like we fielded JUST the LCS fitted for but not with weapons.

Seriously, stop pushing this line Stuart. When the UK stops being a 2nd tier player then you can talk smack about who's navy is less stupid. 

 

 

Im not pushing any line. Mr Sarc there wanted to sneer at the Royal Navy's invaluable assistance when his navy fucked up, so he got it back down the bearing. And to be honest Ryan, I hardly think he needs YOU to bodyguard for him.


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#116 Ssnake

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 0216 AM

There is some speculation that the PRC put in 'Agitators' among the protestors, so they can make the protestors look bad enough that they can go in heavy handed. I wouldnt rule that out, but if they had, I would have thought that if they had, they would already have sent the tanks in by now.

That's quite the point. The PRC has the power to destroy Hong Kong - but if they want to keep it as a money-making machine, they can't.


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#117 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 0221 AM

This is the problem the PRC has. They want Hong Kong to be like the PRC. What they havent figured out is, if they make Hong Kong just like the PRC, they will kill it. Its that innovation and independence, wholly different from the rest of China, that makes it what it is. They would do well to leave it the hell alone and treat it as a colonial asset at arms length, and let it keep laying the golden egg.

 

Im reminded of what Lech Walesa once said. 'Sure, the Soviets can take Poland over. But they will never get it working again'.


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#118 sunday

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 1302 PM

Looks like Stuart is well again, and I hope he continues in that shape.
 
Now, let's contrast the abandonment of the parts of Hong Kong leased to perpetuity to a totalitarian regime, with this 2008 statement: 
 

Q257 Mr. Hamilton: Clearly, following the election of Zapatero's Government, and their subsequent re-election, there was a sea change in relations between Spain, Gibraltar and the United Kingdom. Of course, before that, there were constant discussions about Gibraltar's sovereignty and whether it had a right to continue as it was. Are sovereignty discussions between Spain and Gibraltar now permanently off the agenda, or is the sovereignty issue still in the background as far as Britain's relations with Spain and Gibraltar are concerned?

Jim Murphy: I share your assessment about the very mature and principled position of the Spanish Government. We have seen a real willingness to engage on the principle and the detail. Without infringing on Spanish politics, I should say that we now have a very healthy dynamic. Of course, on occasions, we disagree. Is sovereignty off the agenda for ever? Such conversations cannot stop people raising matters, but we have made it very clear—I think, Mr. Hamilton, that you were at the Gibraltar day celebrations at the Guildhall when I made this speech—that the UK Government will never—"never" is a seldom-used word in politics—enter into an agreement on sovereignty without the agreement of the Government of Gibraltar and their people. In fact, we will never even enter into a process without that agreement. The word "never" sends a substantial and clear commitment and has been used for a purpose. We have delivered that message with confidence to the peoples and the Governments of Gibraltar and Spain. It is a sign of the maturity of our relationship now that that is accepted as the UK's position.

Q258 Mr. Hamilton: I am sure that the people and Government of Gibraltar will be very grateful, as is the Committee, for that statement and reiteration.


Source


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#119 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 0201 AM

Thank you Sunday. Its been an eventful month to put it mildly.

 

As said before, no parts of Hong Kong were abandoned. It would have been impossible to hold onto half a city when the Communists owned ALL the reservoirs. To keep Hong Kong, we would have had to keep regularly importing icebergs. Besides, splitting cities never works very well. Ask a Berliner.

 

As for Gibraltar, its pretty clear the Blair Government were willing to throw Gibraltar under the bus to get support from Spain on various issues in the EU. That only ended when the leadership of Spain changed. All looks a bit short sighted now, but that was our Tony for you.


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#120 sunday

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 0514 AM

Thank you Sunday. Its been an eventful month to put it mildly.

 

As said before, no parts of Hong Kong were abandoned. It would have been impossible to hold onto half a city when the Communists owned ALL the reservoirs. To keep Hong Kong, we would have had to keep regularly importing icebergs. Besides, splitting cities never works very well. Ask a Berliner.

 

As for Gibraltar, its pretty clear the Blair Government were willing to throw Gibraltar under the bus to get support from Spain on various issues in the EU. That only ended when the leadership of Spain changed. All looks a bit short sighted now, but that was our Tony for you.

 

Seems you are stating that yes, that half of a city was abandoned because of lack of infrastructures.

You know, there is a thing called Civil Engineering that comprises reservoir building, and there other things called desalination plants, and there was time to prepare a division. HK also, probably earnt HM Government a pretty shilling or two, and not all of them because the export of opium.

Probably, the average HKer would have received UK citizenship with more advantage than most UK residents originating from the Indian subcontinent, Mayor of London included.


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