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Protests In Hong Kong


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#21 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0934 AM

Pity they arent blaming us for it. It might convince us not to buy all the Huawei 5G spyware.


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#22 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0946 AM

Send the HK's 500K assault rifles, 100K LAW's, 10K ATGM's.  S/F....Ken M


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#23 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1023 AM

Good to see the UK government is speaking up.

Theresa May has stepped into the growing crisis over China’s controversial plan to change the extradition law for Hong Kong citizens, by saying it was vital this did not breach the joint British-Chinese declaration, agreed at the time of the city’s return to China in 1997.

In her first comments since protests started in the semi-autonomous city last week, the British prime minister said she was deeply concerned and the UK had a special responsibility to speak out in favour of freedoms in the former British colony.

“We are concerned about [the] potential effects of these proposals particularly obviously given the large number of British citizens there are in Hong Kong,” May told parliament.

“But it is vital that those extradition arrangements in Hong Kong are in line with the rights and freedoms that were set down in the Sino-British joint declaration.”

The foreign secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responded to growing calls to intervene by urging China to preserve a high level of autonomy in Hong Kong and engage in meaningful dialogue.

With the UK possessing scant legal leverage over Hong Kong’s future, Hunt opted instead to urge China to recognise it was in its own interests to show restraint, in order to preserve its international reputation.

“The ongoing protests in Hong Kong are a clear sign of significant public concern about the proposed changes to extradition laws. I call on all sides to remain calm and peaceful,” he said in a statement.

Hunt also urged the Hong Kong authorities “to listen to the concerns of its people and its friends in the international community, and to pause and reflect on these controversial measures. It is essential that the authorities engage in meaningful dialogue and take steps to preserve Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms and high degree of autonomy, which underpin its international reputation.”

He continued: “Upholding the principle of ‘one country, two systems’, as set out in the legally binding Sino-British joint declaration, is vital to Hong Kong’s future success.”

Hunt had already issued a joint statement with the Canadian government urging China to give the Hong Kong legislative council time to come up with alternative extradition proposals that maintained business confidence. There are fears the legislation could be pushed through within a week.

Britain’s minister for Asia, Mark Field, told MPs on Monday that recent concessions on the proposed law fell short of protecting the city’s autonomy and judicial independence.

“There are widespread concerns that fear of extradition to China might have a chilling effect on Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms and result in increased self-censorship … Hong Kong must enjoy the full measure of its high degree of autonomy and rule of law as set out in the joint declaration and enshrined in the basic law,” he said.

“Many fear above all that Hong Kong nationals and residents risk being pulled into China’s legal system, which can involve lengthy pre-trial detentions, televised confessions and an absence of many of the judicial safeguards that we see in Hong Kong and in the UK.”

Hinting that the UK could declare a breach in the joint declaration, he said the extradition bill came close to representing a breach, not just of the spirit but of the text.

The last British governor of Hong Kong, Chris Patten, has said the extradition bill’s provisions are “a terrible blow … against the rule of law, against Hong Kong’s stability and security, against Hong Kong’s position as a great international trading hub”.

https://www.theguard...ndover-deal-may
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#24 Nobu

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1115 AM

Interesting to read the origins of the protests, which apparently have a basis in extradition law.

 

Send the HK's 500K assault rifles, 100K LAW's, 10K ATGM's.

 

If only they would use them, unlike the Nationalist Chinese.


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#25 Nobu

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1258 PM

India clearly had no reservations about going to war with Portugal for Goa. Whether Spain and Spaniards are or have ever been similarly determined to do so for Gibraltar remains to be seen.

 

The UK is obviously betting that it and they never will.


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#26 sunday

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1316 PM

India clearly had no reservations about going to war with Portugal for Goa. Whether Spain and Spaniards are or have ever been similarly determined to do so for Gibraltar remains to be seen.

 

The UK is obviously betting that it and they never will.

 

You forgot your Clausewitz, Nobu. Before war there is always politics.


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#27 RETAC21

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1323 PM

 

India clearly had no reservations about going to war with Portugal for Goa. Whether Spain and Spaniards are or have ever been similarly determined to do so for Gibraltar remains to be seen.

 

The UK is obviously betting that it and they never will.

 

You forgot your Clausewitz, Nobu. Before war there is always politics.

 

 

He's forgetting we went to war over Gibraltar twice, but didn't got it. He's right that if the Guardia Civil takes over it and then we dare the UK to do something about it while giving the locals EU citizenship, it will go the Goa way. But there's a lack of guts this side of the border.


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#28 sunday

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1337 PM

 

 

India clearly had no reservations about going to war with Portugal for Goa. Whether Spain and Spaniards are or have ever been similarly determined to do so for Gibraltar remains to be seen.

 

The UK is obviously betting that it and they never will.

 

You forgot your Clausewitz, Nobu. Before war there is always politics.

 

 

He's forgetting we went to war over Gibraltar twice, but didn't got it. He's right that if the Guardia Civil takes over it and then we dare the UK to do something about it while giving the locals EU citizenship, it will go the Goa way. But there's a lack of guts this side of the border.

 

 

Indeed. Brains too.


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#29 rmgill

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1339 PM

 

Oh for Gods sake, just stop already. Not EVERY problem begins and ends inside the Washington Beltway.

 

Your words sparky.
 

 

All we are worried about is whether signing up to Huawei is going to upset Donald Trump or not.

 

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#30 Josh

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1630 PM

How long before they send in the tanks?  Hong Kong is a warning as to what the Left is planning for us.

The left is planning on sending in all those right wing leaning police and soldiers to crush all those very conservative major cities in the US? :P

That is beyond tin foil, its just funny.

Edited by Josh, 12 June 2019 - 1631 PM.

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#31 Josh

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1635 PM

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.


I think they learned exactly how to handle colonies. Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, etc. For two of those their is a racist component similar to European colonialism.

Edited by Josh, 12 June 2019 - 1639 PM.

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#32 Jeff

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1751 PM

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

 

My guess is that like most countries, they have no problem with colonialism, just being on the wrong end of it.

 

I wish the people in Hong Kong well but do we really think the ChiComs are going to give in and set the precedent that people have the right to self determination on anything when they're sitting on a powder keg of 1.5 billion people? The closer the protesters get to actually succeeding, the more the CHiComs will stomp them into the dirt in the end. I have a bad feeling, either the protests will fizzle out due to arrests of leaders or the ChiComs will tire of it and shut down the media and the internet and bring it to a swift bloody end knowing the West isn't likely to do much more than send a sternly worded communique and enact some symbolic sanctions.

 

BTW, did anyone expect any other end than ChiCom domination and repression of Hong Kong? There may have been agreements with "honor" and all that other diplomatic BS but it was always going to end with Hong Kong's utter capitulation. The only question was how long it would take.


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#33 Jeff

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1752 PM

Hinting that the UK could declare a breach in the joint declaration, he said the extradition bill came close to representing a breach, not just of the spirit but of the text.

 

 

And that will result in what?


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#34 GregShaw

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1823 PM

 

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

 

BTW, did anyone expect any other end than ChiCom domination and repression of Hong Kong? There may have been agreements with "honor" and all that other diplomatic BS but it was always going to end with Hong Kong's utter capitulation. The only question was how long it would take.

Bingo, they've had 20+ years, which is more than I had expected back when the transition happened, but it was always just a matter of time


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#35 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1905 PM


It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

 
My guess is that like most countries, they have no problem with colonialism, just being on the wrong end of it.
 
I wish the people in Hong Kong well but do we really think the ChiComs are going to give in and set the precedent that people have the right to self determination on anything when they're sitting on a powder keg of 1.5 billion people? The closer the protesters get to actually succeeding, the more the CHiComs will stomp them into the dirt in the end. I have a bad feeling, either the protests will fizzle out due to arrests of leaders or the ChiComs will tire of it and shut down the media and the internet and bring it to a swift bloody end knowing the West isn't likely to do much more than send a sternly worded communique and enact some symbolic sanctions.
 
BTW, did anyone expect any other end than ChiCom domination and repression of Hong Kong? There may have been agreements with "honor" and all that other diplomatic BS but it was always going to end with Hong Kong's utter capitulation. The only question was how long it would take.

Completely agree.
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#36 DKTanker

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1931 PM

BTW, did anyone expect any other end than ChiCom domination and repression of Hong Kong? There may have been agreements with "honor" and all that other diplomatic BS but it was always going to end with Hong Kong's utter capitulation. The only question was how long it would take.

 

I must admit I am astonished it took twenty years before the Red Book warriors started slamming their mailed fist on the table.


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#37 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 0218 AM

Good to see the UK government is speaking up.

Theresa May has stepped into the growing crisis over China’s controversial plan to change the extradition law for Hong Kong citizens, by saying it was vital this did not breach the joint British-Chinese declaration, agreed at the time of the city’s return to China in 1997.

In her first comments since protests started in the semi-autonomous city last week, the British prime minister said she was deeply concerned and the UK had a special responsibility to speak out in favour of freedoms in the former British colony.

“We are concerned about [the] potential effects of these proposals particularly obviously given the large number of British citizens there are in Hong Kong,” May told parliament.

“But it is vital that those extradition arrangements in Hong Kong are in line with the rights and freedoms that were set down in the Sino-British joint declaration.”

The foreign secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responded to growing calls to intervene by urging China to preserve a high level of autonomy in Hong Kong and engage in meaningful dialogue.

With the UK possessing scant legal leverage over Hong Kong’s future, Hunt opted instead to urge China to recognise it was in its own interests to show restraint, in order to preserve its international reputation.

“The ongoing protests in Hong Kong are a clear sign of significant public concern about the proposed changes to extradition laws. I call on all sides to remain calm and peaceful,” he said in a statement.

Hunt also urged the Hong Kong authorities “to listen to the concerns of its people and its friends in the international community, and to pause and reflect on these controversial measures. It is essential that the authorities engage in meaningful dialogue and take steps to preserve Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms and high degree of autonomy, which underpin its international reputation.”

He continued: “Upholding the principle of ‘one country, two systems’, as set out in the legally binding Sino-British joint declaration, is vital to Hong Kong’s future success.”

Hunt had already issued a joint statement with the Canadian government urging China to give the Hong Kong legislative council time to come up with alternative extradition proposals that maintained business confidence. There are fears the legislation could be pushed through within a week.

Britain’s minister for Asia, Mark Field, told MPs on Monday that recent concessions on the proposed law fell short of protecting the city’s autonomy and judicial independence.

“There are widespread concerns that fear of extradition to China might have a chilling effect on Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms and result in increased self-censorship … Hong Kong must enjoy the full measure of its high degree of autonomy and rule of law as set out in the joint declaration and enshrined in the basic law,” he said.

“Many fear above all that Hong Kong nationals and residents risk being pulled into China’s legal system, which can involve lengthy pre-trial detentions, televised confessions and an absence of many of the judicial safeguards that we see in Hong Kong and in the UK.”

Hinting that the UK could declare a breach in the joint declaration, he said the extradition bill came close to representing a breach, not just of the spirit but of the text.

The last British governor of Hong Kong, Chris Patten, has said the extradition bill’s provisions are “a terrible blow … against the rule of law, against Hong Kong’s stability and security, against Hong Kong’s position as a great international trading hub”.

https://www.theguard...ndover-deal-may

 

 

Took them long enough didnt it?


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#38 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 0220 AM

 

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

 

My guess is that like most countries, they have no problem with colonialism, just being on the wrong end of it.

 

I wish the people in Hong Kong well but do we really think the ChiComs are going to give in and set the precedent that people have the right to self determination on anything when they're sitting on a powder keg of 1.5 billion people? The closer the protesters get to actually succeeding, the more the CHiComs will stomp them into the dirt in the end. I have a bad feeling, either the protests will fizzle out due to arrests of leaders or the ChiComs will tire of it and shut down the media and the internet and bring it to a swift bloody end knowing the West isn't likely to do much more than send a sternly worded communique and enact some symbolic sanctions.

 

BTW, did anyone expect any other end than ChiCom domination and repression of Hong Kong? There may have been agreements with "honor" and all that other diplomatic BS but it was always going to end with Hong Kong's utter capitulation. The only question was how long it would take.

 

 

I think you are spot on. They have been doing very little else in Africa.

 

I didnt expect any other result. I hoped for better. And I had expected that when it happened we would have most western nations making more than vague complaints. So they have sunk below even my mediocre expectations.


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#39 JasonJ

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 0238 AM

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

 
My guess is that like most countries, they have no problem with colonialism, just being on the wrong end of it.
 
I wish the people in Hong Kong well but do we really think the ChiComs are going to give in and set the precedent that people have the right to self determination on anything when they're sitting on a powder keg of 1.5 billion people? The closer the protesters get to actually succeeding, the more the CHiComs will stomp them into the dirt in the end. I have a bad feeling, either the protests will fizzle out due to arrests of leaders or the ChiComs will tire of it and shut down the media and the internet and bring it to a swift bloody end knowing the West isn't likely to do much more than send a sternly worded communique and enact some symbolic sanctions.
 
BTW, did anyone expect any other end than ChiCom domination and repression of Hong Kong? There may have been agreements with "honor" and all that other diplomatic BS but it was always going to end with Hong Kong's utter capitulation. The only question was how long it would take.
  

Hinting that the UK could declare a breach in the joint declaration, he said the extradition bill came close to representing a breach, not just of the spirit but of the text.

 
And that will result in what?

Yeah, they would have no problem with doing colonialization. I would add that often they use ghe "century of humiliation" as the reasoning for the need of expanding outward. That argument often fails to come up with rebuttals when the following is pointed out. Who prohibited China's economic growth? Was China hindered during the 1980s? 1990s? 2000s? 2010s? From that point onward, they transitioned from a huge poverty country to the worlds second largest economy and the western world, by large, has not applied any effort in stopping it. So what do they do? They double down on the 9 dash line, reinforce force the claim on Taiwan and on the Senkaku islands, and advance forceful sinicization in Tibet and Xinjiang. Some of their talking heads make a point that China is a "stay-at-home-power" and reason that the 9 dash line, Taiwan, and the Senkaku islands aren't in contradiction because those areas are "soverign territory".

It may be fate for Hong Kong to be subdued but there is still a choice to go quietly or to go with a fight. The Hong Kongers are fighting and would be a shame to not be supported. What needs to be known are the more specifics about Hong Kong governance. There are still mechanisms which have enabled Hong Kong to last as long as it has. A big point is that they have elections for the Hong Kong legislature. In 2016, the number of pro-beijing candidates was reduced and the number of pro-democratic/pro-localizers went up. That 2016 election is said to be a result of the efforts made in the massive 2014 demonstartions. So really, it isn't just suddenly now that it is happening.

Hong Kongers that aren't Pro-Beijing have the choice, accept CCP dominion, move out, or stay with pride and fight to the bitter end. I recall some of the stronger feeling independence leaders talking about a need to make alliances or some kind of security relationship with out side countries. If that sentiment goes up, they'll be willing to take E5Ms advice of arms. We aren't there yet. But that's one way in which teeth could be provided to the question as to what the UK will do? Send them weapons. Send a gesture with the visit of a warship. In some way, the US has been doing this a little since once in a while, a US carrier doesn't stop at Hong Kong. There's no other place in China that is visited by a US carrier. Even Taiwan isn't visited directly by a US carrier. So in that way, there could be some invisible hands at work, behind the scenes. Of course, a the smart thing to do before the UK sending, for example, a QE to Hong Kong would be to call up buddy countries and try to coordinate a bit. Doesn't have to be doing the same exact thing, but for example, if a plan is made for QE to visit HK, then maybe Japan would coodinate and have Izumo or Kaga in the SCS not far away. Things like that.

But then why do that for HK. It would be forward to reasons. One is strategic and the other is available will by HK itself. For strategy, if HK falls and becomes just like the rest of PRC in everything but official titles, then the next target is Taiwan. And then its Okinawa. And the Philippines. And Singapore. Winning HK makes it harder to stop and reinforces its dogma. Justifying CCP existance means to eliminate the places that criticize it. The CCP propaganda will not stop because to stop is to accept openly that the CCP is wrong sometimes. And a political entity that normally never faces an opposition political party does not like be said to be wrong. So then comes the second reason, HK will. If they are willing to resist, whether with demonstations or an absolute last resort with arms, then no reason to not augment them.

Also, even if international support was only in the form of sanctions, then better the sanctions be applied at HK than later because just like how it could be said that it was only a matter of time that HK falls, the same could also be said that it is only a matter of time that the US and China enter into deeper heated tensions so long as the US keeps up FONOPs in the SCS, keeps up in proping up Taiwan defense, keeps up the US-Japan alliance, keeps up pressure on DPRK, etc., so at any point, the sanctions would have to be activated, and in some way, the Trump tariffs are a form of it (or at least should be if working as advertized). So better of with getting such sanctions going sooner rather than later because the later this goes, the more formidable China will be in the forseable future.

Edited by JasonJ, 13 June 2019 - 0247 AM.

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#40 JasonJ

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 0339 AM

Government offices remained close and are to be closed tomorrow as well.

Hong Kong government offices remain closed on Thursday, the day after demonstrations against an extradition bill turned violent.

Tens of thousands of people occupied on Wednesday a main road and surrounded Hong Kong's Legislative Council to protest a legal revision that would enable suspects to be sent to China for trial.

Clashes ensued, and police dispersed the demonstrators with rubber bullets, tear gas, and pepper spray. At least 72 people were injured.

The protesters were off the streets by Thursday morning. The area outside the Council building was closed off by a large police force on standby.

A nearby train station was also shuttered, and government offices were to remain closed through Friday.

On the stock market, Hong Kong's benchmark Hang Seng Index closed 1.73 percent lower on Wednesday from Tuesday, apparently due to concerns over how the political uncertainty would affect the economy.

The Legislative Council was forced to postpone Wednesday's plenary session that was set to deliberate on the bill.

But the government is determined to have it passed, and remains at odds with pro-democracy groups that plan to keep up protests.

https://www3.nhk.or....ws/20190613_22/


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